“The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them.” Teach Different with Ernest Hemingway

Transcript

Steve Fouts (00:10)

Well, hello everybody. Welcome to the Teach Different podcast. I am here with Jarvis Funches, who’s been a recurring guest of ours to have a discussion today about an Ernest Hemingway quote, which came up thinking about politics actually, and this idea of trust and what is it that different people need to have trust in other people and how much, how important that is and how it affects us. The criteria that we all set up to determine whether or not we’re gonna trust somebody or not. And this is gonna be different for every person. So I’m looking forward to a really interesting discussion here. And for those of you who are new to this podcast, here’s how it works. Teach Different has a method that it developed that Jarvis was actually a big part of. And this method is really a framework for a conversation. So we’re gonna follow a little bit of a structure with our conversation, but most of it’s gonna be authentic, spontaneous, and hopefully we’re gonna come up with some really good questions during this discussion that you can get left with and you can use to keep thinking about some of these ideas that we’re bringing up. And of course, we’re going to start with a quote and it’s going to be from Ernest Hemingway. I’m going to read that in a moment. And then we’re going to discuss the claim and the counterclaim of the quote. And this is the DNA of the Teach Different method. When you talk about a truth, you sell yourself on it. You get on the bandwagon, you see what someone else has to say about something that’s important, but then you never drink the Kool-Aid and you never stop critically thinking about the world. You take a counterclaim and we’re going to be discussing both. So I don’t want you to think about it like an argument we’re going to have with each other because it’s not an argument. It’s more of an exploration so that we become wiser to the ways of everything when we’re able to see all different sides of an issue. So that’s where, that’s how we roll here and that’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to read the quote a couple times. Jarvis, you’re going to weigh in first about what you think this quote means. And then we’re going to do our method and have a conversation. Here it is. The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them. The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them. Ernest Hemingway, Jarvis, what do you think about this?

 

Jarvis Funches (03:18)

What I think about this is that what I actually been talking about actually blew my mind see what he’s mean is To trust someone you must give them trust right exactly see That that’s a good thing to say, but it’s like I actually have a counterclaim because of this one reason We automatically already trust people without giving them trust, and here’s why. We trust the store man to successfully bring us up and get us out of the store. We trust the bus man to successfully transport us from one area to the next. And why I’m saying this is we give people trust that we don’t even know without even acknowledging knowing that we’ve given them trust. I trust you by getting in your car hoping that you could transport us from point A to point B whether I know you or not. I’m giving you trust, but I’m not letting you know I give you trust. But you give people trust without even knowing that you give them trust. So my counterclaim would be that if you gave somebody trust, I would feel like they would be re-earning their trust. Because in a way, we already come off trusting people. Like just say for instance, the first night we go to a bar, we meet a nice lady, she’s very nice. I’m very genuine and nice as well. There’s trust right there. We don’t know each other’s personal background, but there’s trust right there. There’s a ground. There’s a common mutual ground between us that hey, it’s a nice conversation. You know, that guy’s energy comes off as nice. You know, heart energy is nice. You know, maybe I will go to the next step with this guy. You see what I’m saying? You see how the trust is automatically being transferred from one hand to another without even knowing that we’re giving this person trust.

 

Steve Fouts (05:07)

Let me go with that. Because that’s an insight. And I did not think of that when I originally thought of this quote, the best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them. You’re pointing out that we really do trust people almost naturally, although we’re not even conscious of it. The first thing that came to my mind when you were bringing up the bus example and someone transporting you. You want to talk about it, a treasure, you’re in their care in that bus. They could do whatever they wanted. Think about this. And I do think about this sometimes. I was just talking to you about this cross country trip I’m going to do. Some of them are two lane roads. Well, you know what it’s like when you’re driving on a two lane road, there’s another car coming. At any point, this person could decide to, you know, crash into me. But I have this idea that, no, I’m going to, trust that they won’t. And I don’t really think about it too much. I just assume that everything’s going to be okay. So there is an unconscious trust that we put in people. That’s a new idea for me with a quote like this, because I was immediately thinking, this is talking about the type of trust of whether or not you’re, you know someone well and whether they’re going to be there for you. Or I was getting very personal and assuming it was deeper, but you’re making a really good point here. Did I capture what you were saying?

 

Jarvis Funches (06:52)

You captured exactly what I was saying. We give people trust, even acknowledging knowing that we’re giving them trust. And like you were saying just a moment ago, like with the personal trust, we automatically, just like me and you, I trust you, Mr. Fouts. You trust me. Yeah, it might be to a certain standpoint, but we trust each other and we know each other for a certain amount of time. So in order for me or you to regain the trust or for me to even give you trust again. We will have to mess the trust up that we already have.

 

Steve Fouts (07:25)

Okay, there you go. So maybe it’s more, this is saying that we do naturally trust each other and we’re almost testing people and waiting for people to ruin it. That’s interesting, that’s interesting. I’m wondering how much, yeah, go ahead.

 

Jarvis Funches (07:41)

Exactly, and I just want to put it like in a more of a depth for you know, my listeners and stuff like that. What I mean by that is that, okay, like I was saying, we meet two people they meet, okay, there’s trust, okay, yeah, they’re not going to trust each other over the head, okay, but as time goes on, they’re talking, things are genuine, the trust bonds get built, right? But you gave this person trust, unknowingly if you didn’t know you’re not saying, okay, I’m going to trust you with my heart, I’m going to give it to you. No, that ain’t how it works. You trusted me when I approached you and had a conversation with you. Because if I approached you with a demeanor of, or angry, you wouldn’t trust me at all because of your sight. You are judging me off of sight. They are not trustworthy. But if I approached you in a very casual way, and I talked to you in a very genuine way, you would trust me already then.

 

Steve Fouts (08:31)

There you go.

 

Jarvis Funches (08:38)

So that means I would have to do something next to destroy our trust for me to get exactly you see what I’m saying? That’s what I was

 

Steve Fouts (08:43)

Right, because there’s something built with it. I do see what you’re saying. Let me ask you this.

Talk to me about mistrust or paranoia that people have against other people. When you’ve had maybe a lot of trust broken with people, you’ve had a lot of experiences where maybe your best friend turned their back on you or someone in your family wasn’t there for you when you thought they were going to be there. And if you have enough of those experiences, after a while, the new people in your life and kind of this natural unconscious trust that you were talking about, Jarvis, I feel that it’s almost broken before it starts with the new people in your life. If you’ve got a lot of bad experiences and all of a sudden you’re thinking to yourself, wow, this is just going to be another person that’s going to let me down. Talk to me about that and how this quote addresses people like that who really have lost some faith and trust and they don’t want to give it, but they’re trying to function like everybody else.

 

Jarvis Funches (10:16)

Okay, so we’re speaking of traumatized people. I would like to use traumatized people because I’m also traumatized. I just want to use myself for instance. I was in a car with my girlfriend the other day and she and I kind of got into an argument about the fact that, you know, I want to pay for everything and that I don’t want her to buy me anything and I’m always so quick to buy the tab and stuff. I was saying all this basically to get to the point of I’ve been traumatized before I put my trust into someone where someone actually allowed me to feel comfortable with not doing certain things or not coming to admit to certain things and then it backfired on me and now that same person that made me feel comfortable that I gave my trust to spit in my face or destroyed the trust because now they’re throwing that same thing back up into my face so now it followed me from that relationship into my new relationship and now new relationship I’m traumatized to let my guard down off the simple strength that I’ve been damaged before. And it plays a part in my relationship now because it’s kind of like trickling off onto my new spouse because she feels like that, you know, hey, I didn’t do it. I’m trying to fix it, but I’m yelling like, listen, I’m so scared to open back up. I’m nervous. I don’t want it, you know? And it’s pushing her away.

 

Steve Fouts (11:41)

That becomes self-defeating, right? She’s paying for someone else’s sin.

 

Jarvis Funches (11:44)

Yes, because… Exactly, exactly. That’s why I would always call those types of people like that traumatized people because it’s not that we don’t want to try again. It’s just that we’re so traumatized to be destroyed again. I’m nervous to get back in that position to where I’m comfortable and I’m just comfortable letting her do her and I’m not comfortable. And it trickles off on her in a bad way because she feels that like, hey, I don’t need you. You don’t need me. What’s the point of the relationship? It’s not about money. It’s just hey, you won’t allow me to do certain things because your feelings and your trust is broken and I’m trying to fix that trust in your feelings, but you won’t allow me to because you’re so damaged so I suffer from that too. It’s nerve-racking. And it’s a real challenge to the people that I’m even on the podcast. Once you traumatize, man, this is like a kid being touched on before, man. It’s just like certain stuff just don’t, you just don’t want to happen to you. And when traumatized people get in that era, it’s hard to bring them out. So it’s like, even though you are here to save us, we’re fighting against you and you’re wondering why, but it’s just like.

 

Steve Fouts (13:06)

That is, that’s so powerful there. I think you captured it because trust is the first casualty of trauma. You don’t think the world is out there for you. Any part of it, any person is out there to build you back up and is someone you can put yourself, your faith into. You lose that. And you’re in the fight or flight with the trauma. Like you can’t even think straight. Sometimes the brain scientists would have a field day with this. They would talk about, I think it’s your lymphatic system, the one that produces adrenaline. when that stuff is pumping during trauma, you can’t think straight. You can’t build trust. You can’t empathize with people. You have to really like,

You have to almost start over and it’s not going to work.

 

Jarvis Funches (14:10)

It never works like that. It don’t work because you’re extremely traumatized. But in a way, comes that way. It’s hard to truly say what I’m trying to say because you have to force yourself to be comfortable with facing your fears, the trauma that destroyed you. And that’s a very, very big part of a lot of people that’s…Traumatized we are not ready to face that fear again. We don’t want to face that fear again because it’s uncomfortable It’s demeaning is it’s hurting and nobody wants to feel that pain again So it’s like once we’re running from it You’re so you’re so used to being in fight or flight mode that you know,

 

Steve Fouts (14:53)

not building anything. You’re just reacting, surviving. And, you know, back to this quote, the best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them. I feel like what he’s saying and listening to us is in the end. In a way, it doesn’t matter what’s happened to you. And it doesn’t matter what reasons you can give for not trusting someone in the end. has to be a decision. And before you tie yourself up in knots and pretzels and paranoia and fear of whether or not it’s going to work out or not. The bottom line is. If you want to know whether or not there’s someone out there for you to trust, you have to do your part. Like you almost have to give them that benefit of the doubt and do it consciously, not the unconscious stuff that you were talking about, which is important as well, right? But you have to sit there and say, Jarvis, I’m Jarvis is going to trust somebody right now. And I’m not going to let anything get in the way of that. And that’s the only, that’s what I have to do in order to do my part so that this other person can do their part. And I’m not gonna lie, that’s hard.

 

Jarvis Funches (16:22)

putting yourself back on the market. Let me say that in so many ways. You’re opening yourself back up to vulnerability. And like I will always say to anybody that’s listening to the podcast, people all over the world, nothing’s wrong with being vulnerable, but it’s you have to understand, like you said earlier, you have to be conscious of what you’re being vulnerable about, because then at that way you will understand that you will have more. What is it? Emotional intelligence, I would want to say about the situation, because you’ll have more awareness of that. Like, you know? So, okay, I knew it kind of wasn’t going to work, but I kind of had a feeling that it would work. So you would still have that emotional, you know, like, like emotional tenses of, I kind of already knew it wasn’t going to work, even though that’s sad to say. But, you know, like I get what you’re saying though, at least we are more conscious of what we’re doing now. And it’s not just unconscious and we’re just getting hurt all over again. We’re not learning, you know? So I do get that part.

 

Steve Fouts (17:22)

It’s different, you’ve moved with the conscious state. It is different when you’re consciously deciding to trust someone that is by far, I think harder than not thinking about it and getting on the bus and being like, you got me. Of course he’s got me. He’s a bus driver. You’re, you’re not worried about it. Right. So let’s do this. Let’s get to the counterclaim because you already started with it and let’s, let’s flush it out a little bit more. The counterclaim to a quote like this. The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them. My first thought is what are some other ways you can find out if you can trust somebody.

 

Jarvis Funches (18:03)

I was saying earlier, I had this conversation. I spoke on this topic with my mother. And it’s crazy that you just asked that question. If you were known as a thief, for me to trust your liability and see if you’re really a thief, I would leave $10 around. And if the $10 came up missing, then hey,

 

Steve Fouts (18:32)

Basically you put someone to a test.

 

Jarvis Funches (18:36)

Exactly.

 

Steve Fouts (18:36)

And that’s a great way to know whether or not you can quote unquote, trust them. How many tests do they have to go through? That’s kind of dependent on who you are. And that’s kind of a slippery slope. If you know what I mean, I feel that people who use the test are people who might be testing someone their entire life. And they’ll never come to that point where, all right.

Now I know who I’m dealing with, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I’m wrong, but that is definitely a counterclaim. One, you can find out if you can trust someone by testing them.

 

Jarvis Funches (19:12)

That is true By just constantly putting them to the test checking them or just testing them But some people could get out of hand with that though to be honest

 

Steve Fouts (19:28)

They’re gonna get tired of that.

 

Jarvis Funches (19:31)

I’m trying and I’m trying to show you but it’s like you’re constantly testing me and like even though I’m passing, it just seems not to be enough for you. So I wouldn’t say like those type of people are self-centered, let me say. And sometimes they could get caught in their own way.

 

Steve Fouts (19:49)

They’re, I don’t want to say perfectionists, but there’s certain people that have very high standards and ideals for human behavior, for other people’s behavior. And you can ruin their trust very quickly.

 

Jarvis Funches (20:02)

Oh, so what do you mean by the high standards? like, you know, can you, can you break that more down to depth for me? Because there are some people out there like that.

 

Steve Fouts (20:08)

Certain people believe that certain actions are signs of a character. And they’ve built up this belief system through their experiences like we all have. And they’re actually putting you in a category in a way you’re reminding them of other people in their life back to what you were saying earlier Jarvis, where if we have bad experiences with people, we’re going to go into new relationships and make it very hard for the new person to be trusted because of what we have already experienced. That’s kind of what I’m saying here. There’s a certain type of person that are hard to impress. They’re hard to build the trust of. And I just think that the counterclaim to this quote, this idea that…testing other people and watching them and observing them is the way, the criteria that some people use for trustworthiness and they’re tired of trusting people consciously and being disappointed. They are tired of going through vulnerability and not having somebody be there for them. They think that they’re actually not stupid, they’re, they’re taking advantage of routinely and they don’t want to be taken advantage of. So they can’t put themselves out there and trust just to trust people like Ernest Hemingway, I think is telling us like, already been there, done that. I tried that. That doesn’t work. I have to keep guard. I have to stay separate. I can’t emotionally invest in people until these things happen. A, B, C, D. You know, I leave the $10 and nobody takes it. I put a GPS tracker on somebody when they say they’re just going to go out with their friends to a movie and they came back and that’s exactly what they did. And I did that five times. There’s people that need that to trust. So that’s kind of what I’m acknowledging and I’m understanding that there’s another way to look at this. And it’s not as easy as what he’s saying.

 

Jarvis Funches (23:11)

Yeah, because it’s and I want to just piggyback off what you said, know, just like, you know, the ten dollars and stuff like that. It’s a lot of people out here in the world that still search for clarity. And like, and sometimes they can search for clarity and like a kind of passive aggression. Like, I wouldn’t call that passive aggressive, but it’s like, you know, overbearing. Let me use that. They look for clarity.

 

in some ways but they can be overbearing like GPS’s or you know stuff like that but I do get what you’re saying basically that after they have completed these three steps then I will open up and trust them I don’t see as nothing wrong with the way that he thinks or in his belief because like like when you were saying earlier people can you know traumatize you or can you know make you put yourself into a certain box and make you kind of start to create your own category of people. So I agree with him on that and I really can’t disagree with him on that. I actually, it’s actually a good method to put somebody through a step. I mean, to see if they’re very trustworthy. I think it’s a good method. I mean, I started just unconsciously giving people your trust and then now your trust is broken, now you’re traumatized, you’re going through certain issues, and it can reflect off on others, like we’ve been saying. So I do agree with his method. I do.

 

Steve Fouts (24:47)

yeah, it’s understandable. I got an essential question that just popped up. What is your criteria for trust?

 

Jarvis Funches (24:54)

Mm-hmm. My criteria for choice would be…

 

Steve Fouts (25:05)

Yeah, I mean, and I don’t even have to answer it, but I want you to. I was thinking more generally, maybe people should be asking that question. What is my criteria for trust? I guess maybe I’ll turn it back to myself. I’ve never thought of that. I’d like to hear from you. Where are you on this Jarvis? Do you, do you put yourself out there and let people do their thing? Are you guarded?

 

Jarvis Funches (25:22)

All right. That’s a very excellent question. Now that I’m traumatized, I’ll be more neutral with my trust. And I would say neutral and I use neutral under these facts of this origin. We already, like I said earlier, we already unconsciously give people trust, right? Okay, cool. I know consciously that we do that. I know that. So what I do now is I guard myself and what I do is I sit back and I observe. Instead of me telling you like, I don’t trust you, don’t do that. No, no, no, I observe. My criteria is loyalty. Having compassion and what I mean by compassion is basically like, know, speak with me. Let me know how things are going. Don’t just let stuff pop out the bush on me. Okay, cool. Now if you don’t have those type of criteria then I know you’re not the person. So I politely remove myself from situation. I do that off of two standards. I’m an adult and I can’t let my emotions get the best of me because I am an adult. Number two, I shouldn’t have to sit up here and explain to you a thousand times what I do and what I don’t like. That’s just me personally. That’s me. That’s just me, like, I ever, like, just like you, you come off, you tell me, hey, Jarvis, I don’t like you being late, I don’t like you flipping the desk, girl, boy, I don’t like you break your pencils. I still seem to come late, flip the desk over, break pencils. Okay. I don’t think you’re gonna tell me that 30 more times after you didn’t tell me, hey, once, twice, and at this point, I have to do something about the situation. That’s how I look at it. So my criteria is I I just observed to be honest,

 

Steve Fouts (27:23)

you step back, observe, you acknowledge that there is a little bit of trust that you give people unconsciously, but that doesn’t mean you get yourself in situations where you’re not going to be able to get out of them because somebody isn’t who you thought that they were going to be. You’re going to observe and make kind of moves and decisions. That is a smart, I’m going to put myself in that camp, I think. I think that the way I approach it is I really don’t think about trusting or not trusting people consciously. I think I do give them the benefit of the doubt though, but I am, I’m ready to pivot. I don’t want it to even throw me off if they disappoint me. I want to just read it right into their character. And I want to say, all right, this person, I’ve known them for two months. They’re cool. They’re funny. They just did this. So now I’ve got to shift just a little bit. I’m not going to overreact to this, but this is now part of this person. So I have to just set a little guard rail up. That doesn’t mean I have to not have them in my life forever. I’m not going to go there, but there’s a guard rail there now. And it’s, I think that the ability to do that and not have paranoia and give everybody new the benefit of the doubt and don’t be beaten up on them because of all these other people that failed. That’s the challenge there. How do you do that?

 

Jarvis Funches (29:20)

I hey, just gotta, the challenge is you gotta be open for the challenge. Like we said earlier, you have to, and like the quote, the person that made the quote said, at this very point here, we just getting to the bottom of it. You just gotta trust. And I mean, you gotta trust, and you gotta trust knowing that you’re trusting, and you just gotta be ready to pivot, because at this point, you can’t say, hey, I’m going half in, half out, because then at that point, you’re not trustworthy. So you just gotta give it all your best and you just gotta be ready. And you have to just be understanding. Like I don’t wanna keep just saying be ready. Like you’re just ready for something bad to happen. Be ready but be understanding too because people can accidentally do things and people can miss, things can miss fortunately happen and people can do things intentionally. So you don’t wanna just attach something to somebody just because it happened miscellaneously or it happened on accident. You know what I’m saying? At that point, to all the people that’s listening too, we just got to trust. I mean, we got to go in with ourselves and build up enough trust within ourself to trust the next person and stop just reflecting the trauma of like, nobody will ever be good enough to fix that because that’s not true. And we can actually push a lot of people away that’s actually qualified to fix that trauma. We push them away because we’re too nervous to let them in.

 

Steve Fouts (30:20)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And be conscious of that trust. Because if we’re conscious of it, then if it’s broken, we can make the move, we can shift, and we don’t have to get knocked off things. We don’t have to be in really vulnerable situations where, you know, we might be in a situation where their trust did not work out and it’s not going to work out big time and there’s going to be something terrible since we are conscious of it, we’re making better decisions. So I think, yeah, I feel like we came back to his camp after we drifted a bit to the counterclaim. And, you know, I like the question, the criteria that you use, and everybody should ask themselves that question. What’s my criteria? What do I do with my negative experiences in my life? Do I let them get in the way of the new relationships and how does that affect the trust I have for people? So this is a good one. It always is with you Jarvis. I appreciate it. And we’re, it’s good to see you again. And we’re going to obviously do this again. And this was a pleasure as always. I need you to take care. And when I come to Chicago next, I have a book for you.

 

Jarvis Funches (31:57)

I need that.

 

Steve Fouts (32:14)

I have a Teach Different item for you, which I haven’t told you what it is, but…

 

Jarvis Funches (32:17)

I need that. And for all my podcast listeners and to all the people out here, before we go, I want you to know this. When you’re trusting somebody and you know you’re trusting somebody, give them the benefit of doubt and be observant. Take your trauma, learn from it and be observant in your next relationship. Don’t just reflect on your trauma. Because sometimes people, like I said earlier, sometimes people can do things that remind you of others, but it doesn’t define them as who you think they are. So just be very understanding and very patient. You know what I’m saying? Just be very understanding and very patient.

 

Steve Fouts (32:58)

That’s beautiful. And can I add that the trauma that you experienced doesn’t define you. And that’s the whole point, right? We have to start with blank slates with each other if we can and build something. I appreciate you. Have a good one, Jarvis. We will talk soon.

 

Jarvis Funches (33:06)

Alright, good night Mr. Fouts, be safe. bye bye.

 

Steve Fouts (33:24)

Yep. Bye bye.