“When you are content to be simply yourself and don’t compare or compete, everybody will respect you.” Lao Tzu – Respect

Transcript

Dan Fouts  00:01

Hello, Steve and Dan Fouts here. We’d like to welcome you to the Teach Different podcast, the show that teaches a powerful method for having conversations that’s grounded in research, and designed to help you navigate even the most difficult conversations with grace and ease. Whether you’re a teacher, a school leader, or just someone who wants to make a positive difference in the lives of others, this podcast gives you a tool you can take back to your community, and make an immediate impact. Be sure to check out teachdifferent.com to learn more about our programs for teachers and schools. We’re so glad you’re with us, changing the world, one conversation at a time.

Dan Fouts  00:44

Welcome, everybody to the Teach Different Podcast, we have a great episode today and a fantastic guest, Michelle Mussman, who is a state representative in Illinois, who by the way, I had the honor of having as a speaker in my summer school government class this past month. So that was a lot of fun. And she’s our guest today. And we’re going to be talking about a very interesting quote from Lao Tzu, a Chinese philosopher, and I’ll get to that quote in a minute. But just for listeners unfamiliar with the method, we’re going to start with this quote. And then we’re going to work through the claim of the quote, try to interpret it, what does it mean trying to bring in some of our personal experiences, maybe we can connect what we’ve experienced with what the quote is trying to say. And then at a certain point, usually, Steve, my twin brother will come in and talk about the counterclaim, you know, how can we maybe disagree with the quote a little bit or see it in a different way. And that creates that tension, that critical thinking that’s so important in a really good conversation. So we don’t all think alike, you know, we’d like to have a diversity of opinions. And then we’ll address questions as they come up, and share them and see what we can do to answer them. And that’s the method and we’re excited to be here. Without further ado, and I’ll let our guest introduce herself and weigh in on the quote. Here is the quote,

Dan Fouts  02:08

“When you are content to be simply yourself, and don’t compare or compete, everyone will respect you. When you are content to be simply yourself, and don’t compare or compete. everybody will respect you.” Michelle, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for your time, and we really appreciate it. Thank you.

Michelle Mussman  02:08  Claim

I’m delighted to be here. This is a really exciting experience for me. So it is a quote that I picked. I think it’s something that has resonated with me for a long time, you know, just the concept, perhaps not even the words that I had known as a quote, that I think that we are so anxious about being more than who we really are. We want to be respected by other people. But I also think we fumble our way through trying to make that a reality, right? We try to sound smarter than we are, we try whatever the case may be. And I think if we can just sit and be ourselves and enjoy our personality and what makes us real and what makes us excited. That’s how people come to know you and respect you. And I think it’s often because you make them feel more comfortable. And when you’re putting other people at ease. That’s huge for them. Right?

Steve Fouts  02:47

I like that. Putting people at ease. Because if you come off like you’re not trying to compete, or compare with people, people do feel more comfortable around you. All people. I’m not sure. But I would say most right. And I didn’t think about that as a way to understand the meaning of the quote, I liked that. I liked that it disarms people.

Dan Fouts  03:22

Yeah. And Michelle, if you could just give a tiny bit of background would be wonderful.

Michelle Mussman  03:49

I already forgot to do that.

Dan Fouts  03:51

That’s okay. Because I didn’t prompt you.

Michelle Mussman  03:54

I’m a newbie. So I am an Illinois state legislator in the House of Representatives. I’ve been there for nearly 13 years; I was originally trained as a graphic designer. I was a stay at home mom for more than 10 years before I took on this new and exciting challenge that is very much outside my comfort zone and pushes me a lot daily. My husband is a history teacher of all forms over at Fenton high school. So I mean, certainly always kind of talking about things on a different level. For him, obviously, history is a lot more than just dates and figures. You know, it’s connecting things. It’s that human evolution over time.

Dan Fouts  04:31

Yeah, I really and I’m thinking about maybe your role as a legislator trying to connect this quote to your personal experience as a legislator. I mean, do you find that there are people you work with who sometimes don’t, aren’t really comfortable in their own skin and might try to impress or whatever. Could you maybe expand on that a little bit?

Michelle Mussman  04:51

Yep. I think it is a great incubator of the human condition. Right? You know, I mean, as you’re interacting with everybody, we all have ideals of each other. I think people like to think about what politicians must be like and cast certain attributes to them. And you’re sort of constantly rotating in where you are in the perceived food chain.  So for some people, you’re showing up at an activity or an event or purpose, and you were very revered as the person in the room and in another places you’re interacting with people who think that you are worse than a used car salesman that you know, are unethical and cannot be trusted, and you’re very self serving. And, and it’s very much an emotional roller coaster. And you’re interacting with other people in that role, too, right? I mean, they are, whether they are trying to impress you or belittle you, or they want you to be impressed by them, or whatever the case is. It’s a very emotional thing. And I think it’s very easy to be constantly putting up masks and trying to pre-think what is the best way that I should be behaving right now, you know, there’s a lot of strategy involved, you know, you may not want to play your cards too soon, you want to have a poker face in many instances. But I also think there is a certain something about there are just some people who are so genuine and friendly and calm and disarming, and it is noticeable, and it is warm, and it is engaging. And it does, I think, make everyone feel comfortable.

Steve Fouts  06:15

It’s like you can take a break from the rat race with certain people, you just don’t get a sense that there’s an agenda looking past you and your relationship with them, it’s human. I could see how you’d appreciate that much more after dealing with the opposite. And everyone who’s trying to get that angle, or Dan, read the quote again, and then share what you think.

Dan Fouts  06:42

When you are content to be simply yourself and don’t compare or compete. Everybody will respect you. I’m thinking as a teacher, the first I’m going to say five years, I mean, this is my 31st year, Michelle. So I’ve been in the same district for a long time. And the first five years, I don’t think I was comfortable in my own skin at all. I had these adolescents breathing down on me, judging me. I don’t know if I was comparing or competing as much as I was just trying to find my way. But I didn’t feel like I was myself because I was probably so nervous. And so my knowledge base wasn’t where it needed to be. And I really felt that after about five years, I started finding my way, and the calm you get when you’re able to stand in front of a room and just be yourself. I mean, the kids pick up on it immediately. So that’s how I would connect with this,

Steve Fouts  07:38

Here’s my question. If we go back to the quote, it’s saying that if you have that calm, you’re going to be respected. So let’s consider that. Does that always engender respect? Or in what way does that calm engender respect? We can get into the counterclaim in a moment. But why is that respect?

Michelle Mussman  08:01

I think in a lot of instances, we’re like animals, and we can smell fear, right? I think that we maybe even subconsciously, we sense that about each other, we feel other people’s anxiety, or anger or calmness in some way. And I think that we absorb it, we may not realize that we may not name it. But I certainly think it is true in many ways.

Steve Fouts  08:24

And I think anxiety is a very common projection, right? If you’re not calm, you’re probably anxious, and you’re not looking like you’re comfortable in your own skin. I would agree with that.

Dan Fouts  08:39

Yeah, and I would add, when we see people who are calm, and are being themselves, I think that it’s something that we want for ourselves. And I feel like that’s where the respect comes in, where you’re looking at a person saying, Wow, you really have it together. I want what you have. And so there’s a respect because there’s something maybe you’re trying to obtain that you value.

Steve Fouts  09:04  Counterclaim

Well, what do you think? What about a counterclaim? I’ve got some ideas brewing. And let me start with this. And we can flip back to the claim to Michelle, you know what I mean? This isn’t scripted. It’s it’s more just like let’s think about, if you see a quiet, I’m imagining dynamics in a high school classroom, you’ve got a quieter kid, someone who’s always calm, who doesn’t seem to be trying to get a bunch of attention, isn’t getting maybe the best grades in class and maybe isn’t a sports star, but they’re calm, they’re someone that is predictable. I can see some people viewing that, at a certain age, they might even think that they’re afraid of competing, because I think some people maybe their fear is that they don’t want to compare or compete. They’re afraid of how they’re going to come out of that one. And if it comes off as they’re calm, because they just don’t have it, it might not be respect so much as a little bit of I don’t want to say pity. But a little bit of contempt just a tiny bit. I don’t know, I’m just thinking of of different ways that people perceive different people.

Michelle Mussman  10:21

Sure, if you’re more of a type A personality, and you believe that people should be pushing themselves and more competitive, and someone seems more placid, and a little bit more Zen, then I imagine that can be frustrating or confusing to you. Because your standard state of being is to be pushing forward, right. Or, again, if you’re not comfortable in your own skin, and you see that they are happy to dress the way that they want to not care what that is, or whether or not people like that, or they’re happy to admit the music that they like to listen to. And you’re not happy with that. I think a lot of times we can respond to that with anger with jealousy. We want to crack that calm, we want to see how sincere that calm is, and we want to, we want to mess with them, I think, and experiment with them and see if it’s true. I think that’s also you know, a thing,

Dan Fouts  11:11

We almost think it’s a game, they’re being disingenuous, they’re just trying to maybe get attention or something. Yeah.

Steve Fouts  11:21

Michelle, you just sent me back to- I’m an urban educator, most of my experience was in the city of Chicago. So in some of the underserved neighborhoods and those types of school settings, and you’re dead on, when you talk about it, as a test, almost, you might see someone who’s calm, but your first instinct, at least in the environment that I taught in and these types of neighborhoods and communities, the first instinct of some people is to push buttons, and see who this person really is. Because I don’t think that they believe that that calm is possible, perhaps because of all they have to go through and how they have to struggle to maintain their respect from other people. And they’re going to want to prick that person. And they’re going to want to explore that. I think you’re right on there.

Dan Fouts  12:19

You have just described the dynamic of a classroom, where students are constantly trying to get the teacher to lose patience and control. The calmer you are in front of the room, the more you’re able to not only have learning happen, but also you know, maintain your dignity and respect. I’m thinking of the word compete. I think that jumps out when you are content to be simply yourself, and don’t compare or compete. Everybody will respect you. I think what you said, Michelle, a lot of people see competition as the way to generate respect from people, that by beating somebody at something, that’s how they’re going to get respect. And I guess that is true in certain settings as a counterclaim here, that by defeating somebody or being better than someone, I mean, think of in a political race, you defeat your opponent. Well, you kind of garner more respect, perhaps, on a certain level than the person who didn’t get as many votes. That’s a simplistic example. But I don’t know. That’s where my mind went.

Michelle Mussman  13:32

No, I mean, I think that’s a perception issue based on I think, whether or not you liked the person who won and you liked the tactic that they use to win. I think the other thing that I kind of contemplate is, if you are happy with yourself, and you are, I think being genuine, you tend to be more relaxed and a bit more, I would argue, playful and humorous and calmer overall. And I think that sometimes people then think that you are not a particularly smart person, right? And they want to win, then they want to prove that they are smarter than you. And when you fail to engage, or you fail to be upset about them, right, pushing, you know, they cannot win, and that is frustrating for them. I think that’s another big thing, too, is that it’s easy, then to underestimate the intelligence of a person who is not indicating that they’re highly stressed that they’re anxious that they’re showing off. I think sometimes people just don’t know what to do with you.

Steve Fouts  14:28 Essential Question

That’s definitely true. And I’m thinking of this balance that may be and I’m working on an essential question, actually, as I was thinking about this, something like how can you balance being calm and competing, comparing so that you’re not doing all of them all of the time, but you’re balancing it so that people respect you? They know you can go there, if you want to compete with them. They know you can win if they want to get in a fight with you. All right. But you’re calm. You don’t have to keep proving yourself, you really come off as strength when someone knows that what happens when they push your buttons. I’m trying to come up with a little combination of the two. And I’ve just started. So I haven’t worked out the question yet.

Dan Fouts  15:22

You have a question brewing. Michelle, what are you thinking?

Michelle Mussman  15:26

No, I think I’ve been so anxious about being able to formulate an answer…

Dan Fouts  15:30

Me too. Me too. I was looking again, I’m looking at the words again, when you are content to be simply yourself and don’t compare or compete. I’m now sticking with a counterclaim here– compare. I think comparing yourself to other people generates some motivation, a lot of times, to want to be different to want to rise above. I guess this is part of competition as well. I’m just pushing against this notion that you should being simply yourself, you can be simply yourself, and also have an eye out for looking at people that have things that you want. So I would kind of say that that is also another way to generate respect by noticing things that people have that you want. And so comparison isn’t necessarily a bad thing. But it says in the quote, don’t compare.

Michelle Mussman  16:22

Maybe that’s I guess, I would say I feel like the quote is sort of angling it from comparison and more of a negative context, right? I mean, you’re right, you, you can compare yourself and say, I know I’m a good person, or I’m happy with what I’ve done. And I know I’m accomplished. I know I can handle the job that I’ve been assigned or whatever and still say, Boy, I like what that person has done. That person has attributes that I still really want to get to and that I esteem and value. I think it’s whether or not you are comparing yourself, and you feel bad by the comparison, or you make others feel bad by the comparison.

Steve Fouts  16:57

Well said.

Dan Fouts  16:59

Yeah, that was a great distinction.

Steve Fouts  17:01

And I read that the same way. Michelle, the quote, just the way he wrote that. I think he’s talking about the zero sum game trying to compare someone’s always on top or on the bottom. I got a question. I just wrote it. I hope to still be in the flow here. But here’s my question. In order to gain respect, how do you know when to compete? Or mind your own business?

Michelle Mussman  17:28

Think I’m trying to find a context in which that fits? You know?

Steve Fouts  17:32

Yeah, that would be helpful.

Michelle Mussman  17:35

If you’re in that conversation, right? Are you always trying to draw the attention back to yourself? Are you just trying to say one thing more than the other person had said, or be able to correct or something a little bit of what they say? Well, you were almost right but or, you know, that wasn’t quite it. Or there are small things that I think it’s a question of, I’m feeling insecure, and I want to make myself feel better. But at the same time, I don’t realize that I’m chipping away at your insecurities, because you were probably already self conscious about saying things out loud to begin with. And now when I’ve implied that you were wrong about it, I’ve continued to chip away your confidence in that regard. So as you’re sharing bits of yourself, even as carefully orchestrated and masked as you may be doing it, if it’s not well received, then it does not invite you to want to share more, and it makes that authenticity even harder.

Steve Fouts  18:27

Yeah, it’s so subtle to people who are competitors. It’s not always overt competition. That’s where we got passive aggressiveness.

Michelle Mussman  18:39

I think. And I don’t even know that it’s even always intentional or malicious. I think it’s just a question of, I think many people are insecure. I mean, we talk about not feeling that you are qualified for the position, right? The imposter syndrome, I shouldn’t really be here, I’m not really qualified for this. I should not be with these people, right? And so if you’re constantly trying to convince yourself or convince them that you really do have the knowledge base, then you’re reassuring yourself, probably more than you were reassuring them.

Dan Fouts  19:08

Right. Yeah. Right. And then that can be good, is what you’re saying. If it’s pushing you to be more confident, it can be a good thing.

Michelle Mussman  19:15

I don’t know. I think I’m just saying I think when people are perceived perhaps as competing, right, or trying to seem right in a conversation, is it because they are intentionally saying, Oh, I can get just a little ahead of you. And you’re gonna respect me for that? Or is it just more reassurance of No, I really, I am competing, I am knowledgeable. I can handle this. I can you know, is it intentional, indirect, or is it subconscious and accidental, right? Is it aggressive or passive? Maybe?

Steve Fouts  19:47

I love it. How about aggressive or defensive? Yeah, that was really interesting. Yeah. Interesting.

Dan Fouts  19:55

Here’s a question. This is more of a general one. What is the best way to garner respect?

Michelle Mussman  20:02

Make others feel better about themselves?

Dan Fouts  20:04

Yes, I like that answer.

Steve Fouts  20:06

Good answer, Michelle. I like it.

Michelle Mussman  20:09

There have been, you know, tests done and evaluated, that the more you direct a conversation toward the other person’s interests, or the more you ask them questions about what it is that’s happening, or what it is they know about that, or you ask their advice in a situation, in theory, they’re going to perceive themselves as pretty qualified person to answer that question, and that the idea that you are seeking them out, and respecting them sort of brings that back around to you.

Dan Fouts  20:40

It becomes reciprocal.

Michelle Mussman  20:42

It does and I think that’s a hard thing to learn. Because I know I always struggled with, I was afraid to ask the question, because I didn’t want people to know that I didn’t already know the answer. I was afraid to give up that point of intelligence. That No, I’m not saying it. Well, I’m not coming across as intelligent, but everything. So I was in college with another friend, and we were peers. And we would go places. And she would ask a string of questions that I would think– I can’t believe you asked that question. They all know now that you don’t already know the answer. That’s so embarrassing. And people were delighted – they were so happy to provide the answer that nobody ever seemed to give the impression that like, you’re a Dodo, what are you doing here that you don’t already know the answer to this?  Like you’re clearly not qualified. She made them feel smart. She made them feel engaged, the conversation was going and it led to other questions. Like everything just kept flowing. And she got the answers to all the questions I have, that I was afraid to admit to. So it was a win-win, really, I think all the way around because she didn’t have the same insecurities and hangups that I did. So I attempted to lose that.

Dan Fouts  21:50

So that by asking questions, she engaged other people, and she generated respect for herself by being comfortable with her own lack of knowledge.

Michelle Mussman  21:59

Right.

Dan Fouts  21:59

Oh, my gosh, if I could put that Michelle into all of my students’ heads come August. That’s fantastic.

Steve Fouts  22:08

Yeah, it makes me think of Socrates. The only thing I know is that I know nothing. There’s a calm person who is not going to measure himself to anything. But he isn’t know it all. Right.

Dan Fouts  22:23

it’s being vulnerable. That word comes up in a lot of these conversations, it’s being vulnerable to know that you don’t know things. When you’re comfortable in a public setting like that people can connect with you. It does sound so simple when we’re saying it, you just wonder why more people don’t do it.

Steve Fouts  22:41

And it also shows a keenness, like a curiosity, there’s an engagement with a question that’s different than you just spouting off all your knowledge. People feel akin to you. They feel you know, it’s emotional, there’s got to be an emotional component.

Michelle Mussman  22:58

It’s become a dialogue. It’s a partnership, it’s an engaging back and forth. It’s not a one way conversation where you are just educating them on all things we’re or whatever that is, you have not dominated the conversation, you have brought them into it as if they were an equal and who doesn’t love that?

Dan Fouts  23:17

Making other people feel smart… Yeah, back to what you said at the beginning. Yeah, that’s great. Any other questions?

Steve Fouts  23:27

We didn’t define respect. If you put this quote in front of adolescents, you probably want to circle that word and talk about it first. You know, what is respect? What are we talking about? I think that would help this conversation to contextualize it. What do you think?

Michelle Mussman  23:45

That’s a hard question to answer. How do you define respect?

Steve Fouts  23:49

It’s huge. I, what does it mean? I mean, this is when I go to the internet, sometimes, like what is it?

Here it is you ready? Okay. A feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities or qualities or achievements. So I would say Lao Tzu is talking about the qualities, your disposition, being calm is a way to get respect. But this is also saying that achievements can do that as well, a feeling of admiration for someone’s achievement. And I think that’s good that it’s covering both.

Michelle Mussman  24:32

But as you said, I think in this quote, it’s looking more like your personality. I agree. And I would say you know, it implies that you are trustworthy, right? You are not being disingenuous, right? You’re someone who is reliable and consistent.

Dan Fouts  24:48

And authentic — when you’re in the midst of people with authenticity, it puts everyone at ease and you get respect that way– content.

Steve Fouts  24:58

People want that. They thought that it was they want it for themselves.

Dan Fouts  25:02

That’s what I was trying to, I think, say a little earlier. I think we did a good job with the claim and the counterclaim and looked at both. There are different ways of looking at this, depending on how you define different words. And we brought in, and we tried to do these, Michelle, and all the conversations that when we teach kids and adults this, that your personal experiences, everyone is brilliant, because everyone has personal experiences that they can connect with, and think deeply with this quote on and I think we did that as well, you know, and that’s important, because that allows everyone else who’s listening to the conversation, a sense of, Wow, I understand your perspective going into this. I am not you. But given your life experiences, I understand how you think the way you do

Michelle Mussman  25:49

Right

Dan Fouts  25:49

And we don’t have enough of those, that way of thinking, would you agree in your setting too?

Michelle Mussman  25:55

Very much so yes, I think that’s part of the reason that we have so much partisanship, you know, that we’ve become so divided. It’s not just that I see the world differently. And again, that idea that you’re right, based on the experiences that you had, I see how you came to view the world in this way. But I had different experiences. And I view the world a different way. And where’s the middle ground that we can kind of begrudgingly get to, because I do respect the merit of where you’re coming from. Right. And now, I think we are very much at a place where not only are you just wrong, you are morally corrupt, for thinking that way, like you are a bad human being who are selfish and misguided. And you ultimately want the worst for everyone else somehow. And therefore your idea deserves no merit at all, and should not be on the table and should be completely disregarded. And that I think is difficult. You know it? How do you come back from that? How do you re engage people to calm down and take the time to listen to each other and take the time to think about the nuances of problems, and why they’re not easy resolutions to them. But that’s it’s hard to do. I think that we as humans aspire to that. And yet, day to day, that’s hard, I got stuff to do, I got a job, I got homework, I got gym class, I gotta go to soccer practice, I’ve got my mom, you know, wanting me to mow the lawn, like whatever it is, right? Like you’ve got 100 other things that need your attention, whether a young person or a grown up, and then you end up reading the headline, reading the Twitter, reading the news clip that takes a complex, nuanced topic and tries to just get you to have an emotionally quick response to it. And that’s what you’re left with,

Dan Fouts  27:43

When what’s needed is calm, measured, thinking and understanding.

Steve Fouts  27:49

Let me throw in the word safe space. If you don’t have space for conversations like this, it’s really difficult to address all of these issues. And when you think of politics, you know, you’ve got different news stations that support different ideologies, there’s very few places to go where you’re hearing both sides, without the noise, with a little bit of civility. If those are gone, I don’t know how we’re going to bridge this. Yeah, I don’t want to leave on such a note. But…

Michelle Mussman  28:25

It’s a muscle you need to exercise like everything else, right? If you’re not taking the time to do it. I think it’s a skill that you lose in a priority that you lose somehow. I mean, right, we aren’t in a place anymore, where we have to have these conversations with our family members or neighbors, because we will be with them forever. And you’re just going to have to find a way to find some common ground and get along. And now it’s easy to really never talk to your next door neighbor, or really never talk to your family members. You can move away, you can choose not to answer phone calls, you can choose not to come over for Christmas, you can unfriend everyone on Facebook that doesn’t agree with you. It’s very, very easy. And it’s a lot easier and much more comfortable than having these very difficult conversations and remaining calm and remaining open minded. It just is it again, we know we should do better is much easier not to.

Dan Fouts  29:19

Yeah, but it’s like you’re saying though it’s a muscle, we’ve got to work it out routine. And it’s a routine, which is what we try to do in classrooms and with adults. Just build this into your routine. Try it as something that’s a little bit different than what you’re used to. And then over time, and patience, it can be your default, hopefully.

Steve Fouts  29:39

And Michelle one thing that we always try to keep at the forefront, you know, with what Teach Different does the Conversation Project– we use the phrase, courageous critical thinkers and problem solvers. That’s what conversations can bring society and if those are our leaders, then we’re going to be in good shape. But it does take courage, back to your point of it’s easy not to have this happen. But you need the courage.

Dan Fouts  30:00

Yeah. Well, great. Well, this has been very invigorating on many levels. I think we picked a really good quote Michelle, on respect. And we went in different directions and explored and listened to one another, appreciated our different perspectives on it, politely agreed and disagreed. I mean, this is what we’re modeling what we’re trying to do. So I really appreciate you.

Michelle Mussman  30:31

Thanks.

Dan Fouts  30:34

Thank you so much. Really, really appreciate it. And for everybody else, you know, to stay tuned for the next episode. Michelle Mussman. Great to see you. Thank you.

Steve Fouts  30:43

Thank you for tuning in to the Teach Different podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation, and feel inspired by how easy it is to have great conversations with a simple method like this. Remember, every conversation is an opportunity to make a difference. So don’t be afraid to try out our method and see the positive impact it can have in your own life. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, and visit teachdifferent.com for even more resources together. Let’s keep pushing towards a more united and compassionate society–  one conversation at a time. Thanks again for listening. And we’ll see you next time on the teachdifferent podcast.