“When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” – Teach Different with Maya Angelou – Self Respect

Transcript

Dan Fouts  00:01

Welcome to the Teach Different Podcast, the place to have deep meaningful conversations about ideas that matter. If you love what you hear and want to spark meaningful conversations at school, home or work, just drop us a line at support at teachdifferent.com We’ll gladly grant you access to our private library of conversation starters, at an incredible discount. In the meantime, enjoy this episode.

Dan Fouts  00:34

Well, welcome everybody to the Teach Different podcast tonight is the actually the second live event, third event inside our private community. And we’re just really, really excited tonight to go through and do this we have a quote by Maya Angelou, which is great– she has I think we have three or four of her quotes actually in the library if I’m not mistaken. And we we have a guest tonight, who’s going to be chatting in a little bit. And I’ll just introduce her– full disclosure, I know her a little bit and because I work with her in an organization called PLATO –  Philosophy Learning and Teaching Organization, which is a nonprofit organization nationwide that promotes philosophy into K 12 education, fantastic. If anybody wants to check them out, it’s called PLATO – https://www.plato-philosophy.org/ . And Laurie Grady is her name. She’s been teaching over 20 years in the Philadelphia area. And She currently teaches at Haverford Senior High School in haver Havertown, Pennsylvania. And she does AP Language and composition, English Language Arts, and also does some electives, Shakespeare, creative writing, literature, and philosophy, which is how I connected with her. So we’re really happy to have Laurie here, tonight with us, and we encourage her to participate as much as she as she wants. So here we go. For those unfamiliar with our method, and if you’re in this community, obviously you have at least some familiarity with it. We’re going to take that Maya Angelou quote, that I will share in a moment. And we’re going to break it down, look at the claim. See what she’s trying to say. And then we’re going to push back on it, look at it, look at a counterclaim and then ask some questions throughout. And all the while and Steve and I are really insistent on this. personal experiences and storytelling are just so important. In these conversations, Steve and I are going to do our best to share our our personal experiences and a storytelling that we have. But it’s it’s an essential part of using this method, when you try it out in your own setting, whether that be a classroom at work or whatever. All right, so here we go. Maya Angelou, civil rights activist, amazing writer. Just a great incredibly important figure in American history. And this is one that you probably have heard of, “When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time” “When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” Steve, what what is my Angelou saying?  What is your interpretation?

Steve Fouts  03:53  Claim

First thoughts. Take people at face value. Don’t read too much in to what people really believe or what they really are. Listen to what they say. Watch what they do. And make that your assessment of them as a person.I wanted to say be judgmental. But I don’t think that’s fair to say that about this quote.

Dan Fouts  04:36

Why not?  Because judgmental came to my mind.

Steve Fouts  04:44

It’s not saying. It’s saying when somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time. It’s not saying whether or not who they are is good or bad. Although there is kind of a negative connotation hint to this, but again, you got to be careful, I don’t want to infer things. I don’t think that this is a positive or a negative thing in its purest sense. I think it’s saying be clear-eyed, be discerning. And, know who you’re dealing with. And don’t get rosy colored glasses about it.

Dan Fouts  05:22

Okay, so maybe a practical example here if you have a friend whom you’ve entrusted a secret to. And that friend ends up telling that secret to somebody else, and you feel betrayed. So the way I read this, when somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time. So if they’re if they’re not to be trusted with your secrets, and they defy you the first time, then you have to essentially say that is who they are. And they are not to be trusted. And don’t make the same mistake again.

Steve Fouts  06:00

Presumably, because it’s almost as if, and again, I don’t want to infer too much. But it seems that she is saying that people don’t change. People are the way they are. And thinking that someone’s going to all of a sudden fix themselves and do something different, is not wise. And that doesn’t mean that you need to dismiss them; it doesn’t mean you need to judge them; it doesn’t even mean that you should stop being their confidant or their friend. But guess what? You also have to know who’s there. And a lot of times, I’m just thinking in my own personal experiences now in life  There are some people in my life that I could honestly say, on some level, I really don’t trust them. But that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t want to share experiences with them and go do things with them and talk to them and have conversations and still have a friendship. But there’s a boundary that I’ve kind of created with them, where I’m not really expecting them to be different. And I’m not trying to get them reformed to me, or my sense of what a good person is or how you should act. I’m letting them be them. And it’s okay. So I’m going to argue for her again, that this is not judgmental. It’s just discernment.

Dan Fouts  07:42

Yeah, I can see that, that whatever they do, whether it be positive or negative, people don’t change. And when they do things, they are showing who they are. And the human being is essentially a constant. That we’re kind of caught in our own personalities, unable to adapt to situations and I feel like there’s…Yeah, you’re, it’s important not to, to impute too much behind the quote, not knowing why she said it or whatever. But it’s definitely something that would be said by someone who’s been hurt by someone. I mean, would you agree with that.

Steve Fouts  08:28

Yeah, definitely true. definitely true. And that was kind of that negative connotation that we were thinking might be in this. Would you say this about someone who’s happy all the time? Okay, Laurie just added something in definitely add hers in but answer this question first. If we can, is someone who’s happy all the time– Do you believe that they’re a happy person? Truly. I think it’s similar.

Dan Fouts  09:13

What is this connection?

Steve Fouts  09:16

I’m just getting a sense that it’s either a positive sentiment or a negative sentiment, but she’s saying the same thing. I think we expect people who are happy to keep being happy if you believe a quote like this.

Dan Fouts  09:32

Got it. Got it. Let’s see what Laurie says she weighed in here. “I always took Angela’s advice as a warning too. But what if we did flip it? What if she means we should be careful not to underestimate a person?”

Steve Fouts  09:50

We’re still on the claim here. She said flip it and I’m thinking oh, we’re to the counterclaim which is fine. I don’t think we’re to the counterclaim yet. What do you think that means, Dan, that’s a really good question.

Dan Fouts  10:02  Counterclaim

We should be careful not to underestimate a person. It seems like it’s moving to the counterclaim. And by underestimating somebody, we’re assuming. And I don’t want to put words in Laurie’s mouth here. But when we underestimate someone, we might assume that they are going to behave the same way, no matter what. When if you underestimate them, you’re you’re you’re looking past their capacity to change. Is that what you meant, Laurie, that they can change their tune? …Okay… All caps YES

Steve Fouts  10:47

Okay, well, yes, we, look, we’ve moved into the counterclaim, we might as well, we’ll come back. I think there are a lot of counterclaims here. And I like starting it off as an underestimate a person. And I think this is something that the younger kids can relate to. Because they’re in such different development phases, especially in middle school, you look at a certain kid, and they might be like, not developed and not mature. And you think of them in a certain way. And then you’re, you’re thinking that you’ve grabbed this truth about them, then all of a sudden, they turn into something very, very different. And it’s time for you to maybe believe something differently about them. And it’s, it’s a new reality is maybe a way to say it, and that person has changed. Did they change inherently? I don’t know. But at least they changed enough to be respected in a different way, perhaps.

Dan Fouts  11:56

I’m thinking of this as a teacher, where I feel like as a teacher, we are almost by obligation trained to believe that kids can change. If they come into your class late, or they do poorly at the beginning of the semester, we’re taught not to write them off, we’re taught to sit them down, talk about how to improve, and then in the back of our mind is this person can adjust their behavior and achieve something great by the end of the semester or year. So we embrace their capacity to change. We don’t just write them off. And I think, well, I don’t know, I don’t want to speak for you or Laurie. But I have met teachers before where you look in their eye, and it feels like they have written students off where they spend the first month and they kind of pigeonhole students. And they know, they think they know exactly what the students are capable of. And they don’t have that growth mindset. I’ve experienced that before. Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s the right mindset for the profession. So I’m really as a teacher, I’m seeing a counterclaim here with the students I work with.

Steve Fouts  13:17

And one of the things to build on that. There are people that have been told by teachers that you’re not going to amount to anything, or you’re going to end up with this type of job, or you shouldn’t pursue this, because this is better suited for you. And they’re showing them who they are. You know, if a teacher is thinking that they’re seeing someone, and they’re categorizing them, and that is just really dangerous. It’s really dangerous to do this. And I’ve got a couple more like kind of angles on the counterclaim. I know Laurie is coming up with something right now I want to hear what she has to say. But one thing I’ll add, misreading, think of misreading who someone is. Think about that problem. We were just assuming that you were actually successful in assessing a person at any given time. That’s assuming you got it right. And then of course, it makes a little bit more sense. Yeah, believe that. You got it, right. But what if you got it wrong, and you’re believing it? And you start off behind? And you don’t even have a clear idea of the situation at all.

Dan Fouts  14:42

A practical example. Again, I’m in the teaching mode here. A practical example of is exactly what you’re saying is that if a student comes in 15 minutes late to class and you have visible frustration, and you read that as you know what they’re not punctual, they don’t respect me. They’re not consistent with the rules. That might be your read on the situation that the student is doing this almost to anger you. You project that. But it might be the case that they have a home life that is making it impossible for them to come to school on time. I mean, we know these situations are a dime a dozen. And to your point, if you miss it, if you misread it, you’re in trouble.

Steve Fouts  15:29

Yeah, that’s really something to think about — empathy. You just made me think that if you believe this quote, “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time”, you better be a real good psychologist, and be able to really key in on who exactly someone is, and what they’re going through. And you have all the data and all the information you need. If you’re going to draw some conclusion from that, and say that you actually have a handle on this person, if you are minus some information, you are going to be probably pre-judging them and categorizing them. And you’re going to miss the mark.

Dan Fouts  16:19

Laurie just chatted in, “Definitely not the right mindset for a teacher. And I sometimes have drawn the wrong conclusions too early.”  But now, I think she’s going to flip to the claim here. “But I must admit that quite often students are very true to their initial impressions that they give. Yet a teacher always needs to encourage growth and a change over time.” What an interesting balancing act there. And I would agree with what she’s saying. You know, if a kid comes in and does act a certain way, oftentimes at the end of the semester, they’re not acting any different. Yet, let’s say it was negative behavior.  Yet, as a teacher, throughout that experience, you had to consistently believe that they could change even though they let you down in the end. So in that sense, Maya Angelou would have been right.

Steve Fouts  17:21

It’s almost as if a teacher’s into intuition, don’t second guess it in all cases. If your heart is in the right place, and you’re a teacher, and you have wisdom and experience, and you have someone come in that comes into your class that shows you who they are the first day, and you have a pretty good idea of who they are, it’s important to look at that situation and say, this is going to be a tough nut to crack. I’ve had a lot like this. And yes, I’m kind of honing in on a certain category of person. But guess what, I have a lot of tools in my toolbox to figure out how to deal with this person. And if I sit here, and I try to give them like these multiple chances and say, Oh, it must have been a bad day. Or, you know, maybe it’s something I don’t know about them that I should be much more empathetic about. And I need to not be so judgmental. Once you get backtracking like that, sometimes you do miss teaching moments because you haven’t, you haven’t, you know, figured out that approach to the person, you know, you know how to deal with them and your hearts in the right place. That’s huge. I think. If your hearts in the right place, like you’ll, you’re gonna get it.

Dan Fouts  18:47

And this is really situation dependent. In a classroom setting, maybe it’s important to lean on believing that students can change. But as you get older, I’m just thinking of this over the course of life– as you get older, and you interact with people in older age, maybe when they show you who they are, believe them the first time because they lose their capacity to change with age and experience. And again, this depends on the person. And it’s it’s hard to make the judgment on as you’re looking at someone. Is this someone who can change?  There’s an essential question brewing in my head. I don’t have it articulated yet. There’s a question here.

Steve Fouts  19:42

But I’m glad you brought up the age as kind of a factor in here because really, the older the person is, I think the true this is, maybe as a way to say it. But and another factor is the environment that you’re interacting with the person. I’m seeing the obvious. If you’re in a classroom, and you’re seeing someone an hour a day, for 180 days out of the year, and the first 13 days is your initial impression. You could define it that way, right? Not the first day of school, but like the first week or two, that’s different than, you know, having someone come to a family event at Thanksgiving, who’s you know, 47 years old, and they’re sitting down, and you’re one of you is joined the other’s family or both.  And they’re talking a certain way, and they’re acting a certain way. And it’s environmental, its environmental.

Dan Fouts  20:48

Well, here’s a question that’s just popping into my head that might not come out perfectly. How do you know when to give up on people?

Steve Fouts  21:05

How do you know when to give someone a second chance?

Dan Fouts  21:07

Well, right, that’s the other.

Steve Fouts  21:11

Because some people deserve that. And they can do incredible things when they realize that someone believes him in them enough, even though they know that they made mistakes. But someone believes past those mistakes. It can be life changing, giving someone a second chance. And you do have to believe a different thing about them, regardless of what you saw, because if you were going on what you saw, you’re not going to be giving anybody a chance, you’re going to look like a fool. So there you go. How do you know when to give someone a second chance?

Dan Fouts  21:59

And maybe the way to answer that question on that. I guess you wouldn’t answer it this way. But you think of your own self, would you want to be given a second chance? Think of the mistakes that you’ve made personally with people. Would would we want other people to have the attitude that our mistakes define who we were and that we didn’t have the capacity to change? I wouldn’t want that. I would want the second chance.

Steve Fouts  22:33

No, I would, too, you’re making me think of the word forgiveness. For some reason. It’s kind of like, if you are struggling and trying to forgive someone, think of something you’ve done, that someone has given you grace for. And that can go a long way in giving you some energy for other people. And Laurie’s getting a lot of stuff here. This is great.

Dan Fouts  22:59

Yeah, she just chatted in. “There’s an emotional bank account,” I love the metaphor there. “…when a person has made too many withdrawals, and not enough deposits, time to be done with the second chances or third or fourth.” The boundaries that you have boundaries. That’s great. And then, but that’s in a personal relationship. We can’t give up. Yes, she’s distinguishing a personal relationship with students. We can’t give up on students. There’s something about that, there’s a different kind of obligation.

Steve Fouts  23:36

I think if you are going to encapsulate what a teacher’s job really is. It is in having that patience and grace. It is having that that timeframe, where you got to keep believing in people. Because these kids need someone that is outside to keep believing in them. You can’t rely that they’re getting it at home. You can’t rely that they have that grit and that ability to do it themselves. You can’t rely that they’ve got that perfect friend group that’s nurturing them and supporting them. You can’t rely on it. A teacher’s job is to be there for the ones that are ready. And I guess the balance is how do you — Here’s maybe another essential question, as from a teacher standpoint, how can you be there for the students that are ready to change? And how do you stay focused and realistic and conserve your energy with students that need to be dealt with in a different way?

Dan Fouts  24:54

I have a story that just popped into my head. This must have been 15 years ago. A student Who knew how to play the system was late to school, missed school, constant excuses. She was in a high level class I was teaching in government. She was extremely intelligent, and thoughtful and knew exactly how to play the school system to get exactly what she wanted. She was showing me who she was. I knew she was manipulative. I didn’t, I went along with it, I was like, you’re going to change, I’m going to be nice, I’m going to do what I need to do give you the second, third, fourth chance. And then I remember second semester, she was gone a couple more days. And something was seriously wrong with her, something was going on. And she was going into another excuse. And I just stopped her. And I won’t repeat what I said here, because he was a little bit, I think, almost pushing the boundaries a little bit, but I just confronted her and said, ” This is not who you are. And I’m not accepting this.” And she broke down. And the story evolves, where she checked herself in to a hospital for a month. She had serious, you know, issues going on, that needed attention beyond what the school could provide. And then she came back in April, and finished out the year. And we had just, we had ended up having a really, really good relationship and a good ending to the year. I just bring that story up, because I haven’t thought about it in a long time. And it’s also a great example of sometimes you just have to take the tougher approach, and confront their behavior and not give them second chances anymore.

Steve Fouts  26:55

I think in that case, you played a really good balance. You kind of acknowledged that she was manipulative, and she was doing the wrong things. But you were saying that’s not who you are. So I think you actually were playing that important role of seeing something different in her.

Dan Fouts  27:19

Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I was, I was getting at the fact that she could change. But I had to take a different kind of approach than I was used to. And then Laurie just chats in, “It’s so difficult. I think there’s a difference between who we ARE, and our reactions to circumstances.”

Steve Fouts  27:46

Laurie, let me go with that one, while you’re chatting in your next response, that’s really good. Most of the kids that I worked with in my career, were from the west side of Chicago, in very underserved environments. And, you know, I mean, very neighborhoods, poor violence was kind of a way of life a bit. And they were reactors. In order to survive, they had to learn how to react. And my goodness, I came to understand that your whole persona and your character becomes this reaction, and this survival instinct. But that shouldn’t be mistaken for who you are in its entirety. Yes, you’re a survivor, yes you can get home safely. And you know what you need to do to protect yourself and all these things, these survival instincts you’ve developed, but there’s so much more to you than just trying to survive from day to day basis, of all people.

Dan Fouts  29:00

Yeah that’s great. That’s that’s a good illustration of what Laurie was was saying. Then Laurie just chatted “Unfortunately, it’s a bit of a privilege to be our authentic selves. Not everybody gets to be their true selves.”

Steve Fouts  29:14

Amen to that.

Dan Fouts  29:17

So true. So true. Really good. Well, I think we worked the claim and counterclaim here really well, and we’re landing somewhere in between. and concluding perhaps that different situations demand different responses to people. And it might be age dependent, as we mentioned.

Steve Fouts  29:46

This is a rich quote. There’s a lot to talk about.

Dan Fouts  29:51

I’m using this one.

Steve Fouts  29:53

Yeah, this is this is a rich, rich quote.  You know, part of me wants to bring in just the Jarvis story very briefly. And for people that don’t know what the Jarvis story is, this is why we’re having this podcast. And the reason that Teach Different is here, and that it exists is because of a 15-year old sophomore student. And the story in a summarized fashion is essentially it was a class that I was struggling with as a very seasoned educator back in like 2018. It was a US History class. And it was a difficult class. I was losing control of a class around October. And I didn’t have any management, no learning was happening. And Jarvis was one of the students in this class. And he was on another level. He was especially disruptive and only came two or three times a week. And we would have confrontations. And it was a very difficult situation with a student. I took him out into the hall at the end of a class period on a very frustrating day. and, again, I had a lot of animosity toward him because he was thwarting my ability to do my job, and I was trying to be a good teacher. So I was in the right, you know, but I had him very, I don’t want to say I was loathing when he came to class, but I thought that I knew exactly who this guy was. And I don’t know, I ran out of patience for this, right? But I asked him, I said, What’s wrong? And I don’t know where that question came from. But I said, What’s wrong? And that’s when he said this verbatim. “It’s my dad’s birthday today. They killed him when I was in the front seat.” I obviously I was stunned. Class ended. I went down to the counseling office, I asked them about Jarvis. They looked at me like you didn’t know. And they proceeded to explain that he had witnessed his father being murdered in the car when he was 13 years old. So what did that do to me that basically, you know, that was a low point that night was a low point for me to miss that about somebody. Jarvis had showed me who he was and I believed him, and I was in confrontations. And I was caught up and, and no, I didn’t know who this person was. I didn’t know what he had gone through. I didn’t really know. So it was embarrassing. I missed the mark. I came in the next day, I brought a quote in. And I can’t even remember what the quote was…

Dan Fouts  33:10

It should have been this one.

Steve Fouts  33:13

But I do remember the quote was about anger, something about like anger management and how anger can just destroy us. There was we had the best conversation in that class. I got to know the people in that class, the students in that class better in a 24 hour period than I did the entire year. And it was the middle of October. And it was just amazing. And at the end, there was someone was talking and the bell rang, and no one moved. And it was a perfect conversation. I tried it the next day, it worked. This quote, I just brought in a quote, and we got a conversation going. Anyway, that’s the story. That’s why I Teach Different exhibits from that point on.

 

Dan Fouts  33:58

That’s the founding story.

Steve Fouts  34:00

That’s when I went to you. And I was like, look what I’m doing here. I’m putting these quotes. And I’m getting to know kids, like I get to, I get to see who they really are and what they really think about things. And anyway, that’s how it started. It’s inspiring. You got me up, you know, thinking about Jarvis.

Dan Fouts  34:17

I wonder what Maya Angelou, if you told that story to her, it would be fascinating to see how she would respond to that.

Steve Fouts  34:28

When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time, here’s I’m going to, I’m going to agree with her and say, I should have looked at this person and said, there is no way this person is acting this way without a reason. You need to talk to them, immediately, away from class. It took me six weeks and a frustrating day. And somewhere I said what’s wrong

Dan Fouts  35:02

He was misbehaving but you misread it as something against you and really it was something else going on in his life that you should have uncovered.

Steve Fouts  35:13

Exactly. Because after that he didn’t have perfect days. He was still Jarvis. But he and I never had an issue anymore. And when he was angry, I understood, like I got it. That was the new information. So yeah, so I’m going to say that she could have given me some advice. I should have gotten to him earlier.

Dan Fouts  35:38

Yeah, that story fits really well. Yeah, well, that, hey, that’s a good, that’s a good spot to kind of unwind this and wrap up. I mean, this is a great quote. I think this is relatable to anyone, adults and kids alike. When somebody shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

Steve Fouts  36:08

I love it, I love the word believe too. You know, it’s like,

Dan Fouts  36:12

And we will, and we’re going to get this audio recording for this podcast, video podcast, really. And then Steve, and I will be making a conversation plan and sharing it in the community with all the resources that you need to put this into your your setting. So I’m really excited to put this one together. It’s going to be fantastic.

Steve Fouts  36:37

Laurie, thank you!

Dan Fouts  36:39

Laurie, thank you so much for joining in. And you know, we hope to have other people here for the other podcasts and absolutely. And you’re welcome to come to the next one. All right. Well, thanks, everybody. Take care. Have great conversations, and we will see everybody as soon as we can. Bye bye.

Dan Fouts  37:04

We hope you enjoyed the conversation and feel inspired by how easy it is to have great conversations with a simple method like this. If you want to spark meaningful conversations at school, home or work, just drop us a line at support@Teachdifferent.com We’ll gladly grant you access to our private library of conversation starters at an incredible discount. Take care and good luck with your conversations.