“To lose patience is to lose the battle.” – Mahatma Gandhi – Patience

Transcript

Transcript

Dan Fouts  00:01

Hello, Steven Dan Fouts here. We’d like to welcome you to the teach different podcast, the show that teaches a powerful method for having conversations that’s grounded in research, and designed to help you navigate even the most difficult conversations with grace and ease. Whether you’re a teacher, a school leader, or just someone who wants to make a positive difference in the lives of others, this podcast gives you a tool you can take back to your community and make an immediate impact. Be sure to check out teach different.com to learn more about our programs for teachers and schools. We’re so glad you’re with us changing the world, one conversation at a time. Welcome.

Dan Fouts  00:45

Well, good evening, everybody. Welcome to the teach different podcast tonight, we’re really excited to have Renee Jones with us who’s a English teacher from Lincoln High in Nebraska. So she’s going to be introducing yourself quickly here. And she’s got an interesting background, we’re really happy to have her as part of our teach different podcast episode series. And we have another Mahatma Gandhi quote, this one is on patience that I’ll get to in a moment. But just for people who might not be familiar with the teach different method, we’re going to start with that awesome quote that has multi dimensions to it. And we’re going to share the quote, and then we’re going to look at the claim of the quote, interpret it. And then just when we start agreeing with it, we’re going to turn the tables and think about a counterclaim to the, quote, a different way of looking at the world that is equally reasonable to the claim. And in that way, we work on our critical thinking skills, and appreciation for diverse perspectives. We’ll share personal stories throughout if it’s relevant to the claim or the counterclaim. And then we think about different questions that might arise during the conversation, which is an important part of the method, that organic inquiry, asking questions. And to everyone out there who has a classroom, of course, the whole purpose of these episodes is to take this quote and bring it to your students. You know, we want to pass along this this is meant to be the beginning of an inspiration and a journey for people to have better conversations. So with that, we’ll begin with Mahatma Gandhi. And this is on patience. It’s very short, but really profound. “To lose patience, is to lose the battle.” “To lose patience is to lose the battle”. Rene, welcome to teach different podcasts. It’s great that you’re here. Awesome.

Renee Jones  02:33

Thank you for having me. I’m really excited for this conversation. So as you said, my name is Renee Jones, and I teach all freshmen this year, I’m in Lincoln, Nebraska at Lincoln High School, and right now I have a nine honors class and getting my feet wet with Avid that I’ll get to be supporting my students with the next four years. And I am also the 2023, Nebraska State Teacher of the Year. And this is my ninth year of teaching. And I’m just excited. Our school year is off to a really good start. We’re on week seven. So we’re kind of getting into the groove of things. And it just Yeah, it feels really good.

Steve Fouts  03:09

Nice. This is when the honeymoon is over. Right? If you don’t have that.

Renee Jones  03:14

Yeah, right. Yeah, the honeymoon that that boat has left.

Dan Fouts  03:18

Same situation in my school. We’re about seven weeks in. So Rene, what do you think I mean that you hear this quote from Mahatma Gandhi. What’s your first interpretation of it? To lose patience is to lose the battle?

Renee Jones  03:31 – Claim

Yeah, my first thought about it was well, isn’t it ironic that I’m talking about patience, because most people that know me would say that patience is something that I’ve definitely had to work at. It’s not something that has come naturally to me, I am type A and want to get things done off of my list, I’m always kind of in forward motion. And I don’t pause and really kind of do things intentionally, or at least historically, that I’ve just been kind of like, full-fledged. And so when I think of this quote, I think of this idea that if I don’t have patience, or to think about all of the missed opportunities that I kind of lost, because I didn’t like take the time to stop and think like, Well, what do I really want from this experience? Or what do I want to learn here? Or what is this trying to teach me or just kind of like all the different things that I’ve just missed out on because I didn’t mull over things or just because I kind of threw in the towel too soon. And so that’s kind of where it leads me to into reflection, to lose patience is to lose the battle.

Steve Fouts  04:33

Yeah, it’s saying that well, you should be patient. Right. That’s really the claim here. Evidently, it’s saying something about you’re making a mistake, and that you might regret it later if you lose your patience. And Rene, it sounds like you were alluding to that a little bit. Do you have a specific instance that you could share when I don’t know you may have lost your patience and regretted it? Or maybe you kept your patience and then later said, Oh, my goodness, I’m glad I did that.

Renee Jones  05:07

Yeah, I think there’s a couple of times in class. And I think there were a few times early on in teaching where my gut was that I really liked project based learning. And I really liked collaboration. But it didn’t necessarily come easily or intuitively to me, because historically, my school experience was kind of that sit and get, like, we sit, we take notes, and we share, we collaborate, we did group projects once in a while. But from my experience, it was like one person kind of took the reigns and everybody else just kind of like, did whatever they said, and I knew I didn’t really want that experience in my classroom. And so I really had to work at building and figuring out well, what is a collaborative environment in my room, what does like just the physical space of my classroom needs to look like all of these different components, and just kind of really be patient, give myself grace, and kind of go back and forth in this fluidity of what am I trying to get at here? And I’m really glad that I didn’t give that up. Now, I mean, in big picture, but have there been units, or maybe even whole semesters where I was like, Oh, this isn’t working, or I’ve tried literature circles, and they just kind of flopped on a few occasions. And so maybe specific moments, I wasn’t all that patient, but then pausing and thinking about, Okay, what didn’t go so wrong? Or excuse me, what didn’t go so right. And so what kind of system can I create to try to make it kind of steer it into the direction that I want to go? So a little bit of both there?

Steve Fouts  06:37

Renee, I have a sense to what you’re going to say. But I’m going to ask the question anyway. Okay, what is the hardest part of things like collaborative learning, problem based learning? What would you say the difficult task is far as patience is concerned? What is it about those activities where you need more patience than some other types of teaching strategies?

Renee Jones  07:03

So for me, it’s kind of twofold. And one of them is it takes Earth time, it takes real time for the students to kind of derive at this answer and to kind of like, provide the leading question. So they kind of get there on their own, rather than me just telling him and also, and this goes hand in hand, but it’s really that like to give away control. And to just be like, Okay, I’m gonna let you own your learning. And I’m going to have you own this project, you know, I’m going to create the boundaries, and I’m going to create the objectives and the rubric, you know, all those kinds of things. And I’m going to steer you, but it’s really hard, then like the your classroom sounds loud and chaotic. And, you know, it just kind of feels uneasy, and moments. But really, there’s like some great discussion and magic happening in these seemingly like, kind of chaotic moments. And that’s probably the hardest part for me.

Dan Fouts  07:53

I love that, that I think any teacher can really connect with that when you have to relinquish control and watch the kids not follow a certain system, you’ve still set them up for success, but you have to allow a little bit of chaos for them to meet the objectives that you’ve set out. I mean, that is that’s such a great example of this. And you also mentioned something if I caught this, Renee about, or maybe I just brought this in— wait time, when we are so geared to answering students’ questions when they ask them, it is so hard, but so necessary, to let them sit with discomfort and have us not bail them out when they ask a really good question. That is so difficult to do. But we have to be patient, because if we just answer their questions, they then learn that they need to go to us whenever they have a problem. And they never develop the capacity themselves.

Renee Jones  08:53

Yeah, yeah. You know, my husband actually taught me this. It’s such a seemingly simple phrase, we use it with our own children a lot, but I brought it into my classroom. And I’ll just say, Okay, what’s your next step? And so it kind of just leading them and just like that simple phrase works in hundreds of different times. And it’s just like, Okay, I lost this assignment, or I didn’t turn it in on time, or I don’t know where to find all the other things. And you’re just like, okay, like, validate, and then just, what’s your next step? And I think the hardest part is, you know, at least for me, when I have, I have decided that this lesson is going to take two days. And we’re inching towards the end of day two, and we’re nowhere near where I thought we would be. And then I just want to be like, Okay, well, you do this, and this and this, you know, and it’s really just like, well, it’s probably worth its weight in gold to just pause and really take that time and kind of lead them rather than just kind of give them

Dan Fouts  09:45

That’s great. If I could just jump in again, Steve, and then you can go. I had a student today who has been only present in class four times. In seven weeks. She comes in and she wants me to give her all of what she’s missed in seven weeks. And I just was very patient.  She came in halfway into the period so she kind of disrupted the period to begin with so, so you gotta take a deep breath. And then I just said to her, it’s Monday.  Let’s make sure you’re here on Wednesday. That’s the next time we meet. That’s our next success. That’s our next win. And so I just kind of took a step back and did exactly as you described.

Renee Jones  10:26

Yeah, that’s great.

Steve Fouts  10:28

Yeah, and I’m thinking about, I was thinking of the teacher angle, on patience, probably the one area where patience is needed. The one area that it’s needed more than teaching would be parenting. I’m throwing that out. I think of just having a class and being frustrated, just in general, with some of my experiences in Chicago, a lot of my struggles, at times were with classroom management, and kids that for whatever reason, were making it difficult to make a learning environment, and to have one consistently. But I realized pretty quickly, that if I weren’t patient with that, I, my anger would get ahead of things. And it would really turn to be pretty counterproductive, quickly. And that patience is what I needed. Because when I was patient, I could come off like, Okay, this is how things are going today. I’m not going to overreact to this situation, I’m going to try to talk to someone one on one, and I’m not going to let my anger or my frustration show. So it’s a control issue to Renee, and this is what I thought yours was. And that I think is mine as well with this the minute I lose patience, I don’t care how right I am. I’ve lost control of the situation. And that’s where I feel like the the bad outcomes occur. That’s what I have with it. It’s really a human quote to me, because patience is what we lose with other people. Right? I mean,

Dan Fouts  12:07

The whole patience is a virtue, I was thinking also, with learning a sport or learning any kind of skill, it’s important not to lose patience, because it takes a while to learn things. And if you just lose patience, you give up and then you lose the battle. So I think you could think of this in learning contexts. You can think of this as a learning a sport, learning a subject, learning a job, learning how to be a parent, really anything that you’re trying to learn. I think what Gandhi is saying is that we should take patience as our greatest virtue.

Renee Jones  12:39

Yeah, I think so often, when we take the time to pause, and to really be intentional and be present, we have all of the answers within us, at least like in your classroom, like you just know, what’s the next right thing? What’s the next right thing. And when you’re not just like reacting or trying to do something for the sake of doing something, and you can just be in that moment, then you just trust yourself and you’re patient with yourself. So then you can be patient with the students. So then you can figure out how to best you know, I mean, how many times have I had a behavior situation in my classroom, and I just feel like, I’m just a terrible teacher, I don’t know, this is a me thing. You know, you just kind of internalize that it just patience just kind of goes into really anything that we’re doing. And so it’s just a really good reminder, not just the kids, but if we can sit in the uncomfortable to allow ourselves some time to figure that out, then most of the time, it’ll come to us whatever that it is. So that’s a really beautiful reminder.

Dan Fouts  13:38

There’s another quote Rene we have in our library that is and Steve helped me out it’s I think it’s Hippocrates– “To do nothing is the best remedy“. Something like that. And this made me think of that, right? If you just sit with discomfort for a while, sometimes that’s the best remedy for the situation, not acting, because it resolves itself

Steve Fouts  14:03

And being present. Like Renee, when you said that, it made me think that maybe even the word patient is something that only comes up when you’re behind the eight ball, like it already has bubbled up a little bit. And now you feel like you have to have patience, kind of like the word tolerance. When you have tolerance. It’s almost as if you’re fighting another inclination, so you’re having tolerance. But if you truly do believe that everyone’s equal, and you trust other people, you’d never even use the word tolerance. If you’re present in every moment, patience isn’t even needed. Impatience and patience don’t mean anything. You’re just living in the moment and you’re reacting and you’re letting things unfold. So anyway, your word present made me think of that.

Renee Jones  14:57

Yeah, that’s interesting. I as you were talking, I just kept Thinking of, oh, maybe it is such a negative connotation with the word patience just like tolerance. And then if we really just think about, how can I be present in this moment and make a choice like the next right thing, or the next best thing? And just rather than, like, what are these perceived expectations that I put on this situation? Then maybe that’s closer to the answer, and then you wouldn’t even have a battle to potentially lose.

Steve Fouts  15:22

It’s like changing the game. Yeah, I have a theory about patience that I have to share. And that’s this, you know, how you talk about how some people are more patient than others. My theory is that everyone has the same amount of patience, and we just deploy it differently in different cases, so that if you’re really patient in your workplace, when you come home, there might need to be a little bit of a release, and vice versa. But anyway, you can comment on if you want, I don’t know. But I just feel like everybody has the same amount of it.

Dan Fouts  15:58 – Counterclaim

Well, let’s think about the counterclaim, then, I think we’re all kind of agreeing with the virtue of what Gandhi is saying, and there’s a lot of truth to it. But now we’re going to flip it here. And think of another way of looking at the world that disagrees with what Gandhi is saying, but is equally reasonable and true. So who would like to take a stab at the counterclaim first?

Renee Jones  16:25

I’ll go for it. I think of it, the moment that I have been patient, maybe it’s more synonymous with over-analyzing, or not being able to kind of metaphorically pull the trigger, where I’ve just kind of sat and rumination for far too long. And then I’m calling myself patient, right? I’m just like, letting whatever will be come to me. And then all sudden, it’s a missed opportunity. And I’m classifying it as like, I guess it just wasn’t meant to be. But really, it might have been more lack of action, or likely a fear of failure that’s associated with whatever I’m not doing. And so I think to me that would be the counter of that is that perhaps too long coded as patience is really a missed opportunity.

Steve Fouts  17:05

That’s a good one. I could add this. I think that from an optics standpoint, let’s think of a classroom for a second. Boy, this teacher is patient, and you’re a kid that wants to learn in class. And you know, there are some kids that maybe aren’t on task. Boy, this teachers patient, I think it can come off, as you don’t even care about standards– fear of failure or fear of looking a little foolish if you try to reprimand someone and you know, speak to them very bluntly, and try to, you know, gain control of the environment so other people can learn, I think that patience comes off in a negative way at times from another person’s perspective, if they’re waiting for you to act, because I think the kids pick up on that, Renee, you know, when we don’t pull the trigger, or we don’t do things that we look back, and we say, Yeah, you know, what, I probably should have intervened right there. And I probably should have said, I’m done with this happening in this classroom. I don’t have any patience anymore for this. We only have 180 days left, we’re going to learn something in this class. And this is how it’s going to be. That’s not patient. That’s, that’s the opposite of patience. But boy, does that set a tone. And sometimes that gets people inspired, and etc. So that’s kind of where I’m coming from. What do you think, Dan?

Dan Fouts  18:40

Yeah, I think that there’s examples in class where you have to act immediately on based on what is said, by students, you can’t wait, winning the battle, if you want to use the language that Gandhi uses. If the battle is creating that positive culture in the classroom, and making sure everybody feels heard and important, then you got to act quickly, in certain situations to convey care and concern with kids, you can’t be patient. The other angle I was thinking about is that, and again, we’re sticking in the teaching realm. But that’s okay. I mean, this is we’re classroom teachers, when a lot of times when you’re interacting with students, I feel like I use my and I’m 31 years in to this. I’m not as patient in making decisions with certain kids. Because I tend to rely on my intuition, more than waiting and deliberating and thinking about the end going and talking to people about what the best thing is. I just did like, No, this is what I need to do. I know it. And so I don’t exert patience. I just act on my first impulse. And I find that the more experience you get in teaching or any other profession, that that’s actually a good way to make decisions sometimes. So that’s what I thought about.

Renee Jones  19:59

Yeah, I think there’s a lot Got a power in leaning into your intuition and making those decisions to support the kids in your classroom. And it’s really powerful. And sometimes even I’m only nine years in, but I have gotten a lot of those times, right. And then there have been moments where I have read the situation all wrong. And I still think there’s a lot of power and then going back and repairing that relationship or saying like, Hey, guys, that wasn’t my best idea. So we rethought that and just kind of like an ensuring that and there’s a lot of times in teaching where there’s no time for patience, you know, where like, if it’s a safety concern, or, you know, depending on whatever somebody is saying, which could be bullying incident or whatever. It’s just like, I don’t have time to think about, well, what’s my best move? I just have to go with my gut and do what’s best for kids in this moment.

Steve Fouts  20:44

I was thinking about the famous phrase, you can lose the battle, but you’ll win the war. And I was trying to apply it to this to lose patients is to lose the battle. But maybe you do win the war. In some cases. Maybe we’re stuck in the classroom, but that’s fine, right? Maybe the kids got to me on Wednesday, and they won in a way, because I lost my patience. I got knocked off my control mode, and they really got me my face got red, and they never saw me like that. And some of them were laughing or whatever lie we got Mr. Fouts. But then the next day, they saw where I went on Wednesday. And now there may be thinking a little differently about how they’re going to act. And maybe we’re going to treat each other a little bit differently. And maybe there was a war that was won by someone losing it and losing some patience, you know, just that experience. Again, I guess I’m still siding with the counterclaim. But that was what I thought the battle war quote.

Dan Fouts  21:50

Yeah, I’m thinking if we bring this into class, Rene, with students, one of the things maybe we could ask our students is, when do you lose your patience? You know, and I’m wondering what they would say, you know, when are you most prone to losing your patience? And have you ever lost your patience? And what happened? What battle did you lose? Do you think you have any ideas and what they might talk about you teach freshmen? Right?

Renee Jones  22:14

Yeah.

Dan Fouts  22:15

Okay, what do you think would be their number one response?

Renee Jones 22:19

Um, you know, I think I smile, because we all have like that class, right. And so right now, for me, that class is my second hour. And I feel like, you know, when I reflect on the moments that I’ve lost my patience already here several weeks in is I think about my second period. So I think what is kind of like my trigger in the classroom, and for me, that is when kids are like up walking around giving each other food or just like up walking around when I’m trying to do something. And I think it’s because I can’t focus on like, what I’m trying to teach and what they’re doing and what are you passing? And why do you even have so many gummy bears in your backpack to begin with what is actually happening, I can’t process all of that. It’s just overstimulating to me and I think I get overwhelmed, and then I lose my patience. I think that they would be able to articulate that. And you know, when I think about that, like, lose the battle, but in the war, I think like, in one, it’s embarrassing. When I’m like, what is happening, you guys, please sit down. And it’s like, wow, Jones, chill out, you know, like, that’s kind of the response I get, which might be fair, because I’m coming across like a little bit overreacting. But I think the bigger thing, the war, that’s winning as one I’m modeling very real emotions to my students, like, I’m just a very real on a human level. And I just tell them, this feels overwhelming to me. And here’s why don’t just respond with like, Oh, it’s okay, can you just put the gummy bears away. I’m also not yelling or lecturing, but I’m just having this real conversation. And I think those little things are really big things. And a lot of that is kind of like we’re just planting the seeds of ways that kids will respond when they feel overwhelmed validating that they have that emotion. Because I’ve said to my kids, I’m like, Guys, I just, I need a minute. This feels like a lot. I’m just gonna take 40 seconds. It’s not you, it’s me and just kind of trying to model there being a human. And I think I really hid that for the first several years as a teacher during my planning period, I’m crying, or then I feel burned out. Like I’m not making my problems, my kids problems, but I’m just being very real on a human level. And to me, it’s a little embarrassing that I don’t always have it together, especially like as a quote unquote, titled teacher, right? But they’re like, you’re the teacher of the year, how do you get overwhelmed? And it’s like, Well, turns out, I’m still human, and I don’t have all the answers. And also, why do you have so many gummy bears? Like what? What’s actually and so you know, like, Where are these coming from? But I think it’s really important that we remember all of that, because it’s really easy to lose sight of them. That’s my long rant for that.

Dan Fouts  24:46

That’s great. I think, doesn’t rant was great. That was great. And that you sometimes take a moment to yourself and you tell the kids you kind of need a timeout. Yeah, that gives them a permission to do the very same thing. because this is where we have so much influence on these students that we don’t even know about. And that’s an intentional, explicit thing to do that they can model. I’ve never done that. Rene, I’m going to actually because you just said that I am going to do that in the next two weeks, you will find a moment in class when I really need to like relax, or I just need 30 seconds, I’m going to tell the kids I need 30 seconds. So thank you.

Steve Fouts  25:27 – Essential Question

Well, I really like your strategy of articulating why I’m losing my patience. Why am I frustrated? If you can do that? You just made me come up with an essential question, Rene, the third part of the method of this came organically from your last contribution. And here’s the essential question I have– What is the best way to lose patience? Let’s not say it’s terrible. In all cases, what’s the best way to do it? What would that look like? And could you teach yourself how to do it and actually get better at it almost as if it’s a skill, because there’s a lot of benefits to showing emotion, like you’ve said, right? And being you and you’re not perfect. And losing patience is kind of embarrassing, at times. It’s humbling. But you can leverage that if you do this, you know, what’s the best way to do it, so that you’ll win that war, and you won’t be just losing the battle and keep losing and losing and losing? So anyway, that’s what I got for an essential question.

Dan Fouts  26:32

And you’re allowing by explaining why you’re losing your patience, you’re articulating your emotions and how it’s affecting you, which again, is so helpful to them. That’s so great.

Renee Jones  26:43

Yeah, I really liked that question that you posed, it makes me really do a lot of reflection. And I think we take a lot of the negative power away when we just give ourselves permission to feel. And then when we do that, and model that for our students, or for anybody, really. And then it’s just like, you take like the big bad bareness out of it. And then you can just be like, Oh, turns out, I’m a human. And so I feel anger. And I feel frustration, and that’s okay. And I think it’s really important for me that I say, like those I statements, right, I’m like, I feel overwhelmed. Like, I don’t handle well, when everybody’s walking around all the time. So it’s like, I’m not throwing me under the bus, because she’s doing whatever, because there’s probably some teachers out there that that just doesn’t bother. I think we ask a lot of our kids, you know, my high school teacher in our school, they have seven different periods with several different teachers, and they have seven different acts. But you know, that’s a lot. Can you imagine having seven bosses and you have to remember what each of them expect from you. It’s a ton. And so it’s like, I need to give them grace. But also on a human level, I can just say like, Hey, guys, this is what I’m feeling in this moment. What’s happening? How can we work through this together? Like the gummy bears? Can we divvy these out during passing periods? So we don’t have to do all this kind of problems off? So yeah,

Steve Fouts  28:01

I have to explain why it is that I’m so troubled with the amount of gummy bears, they can’t be all for you.

Renee Jones  28:10

Right? Where am I share?

Dan Fouts  28:14

Again, they’re organic. What we tell the students during these conversations in classes, they write on a graphic organizer questions that come to their head. So that dead moments in the conversation we say, All right, who’s got a question, John, would you write down? So it’s a good way to keep it going.

Steve Fouts  28:30

While we’re on that, I’m gonna give mine in a moment. But while we’re on strategies, not only that as a way to keep it moving, we’ve got we call them storytelling prompts Renee, where it’s like a handout that the teacher can hand out and all the kids have like a list of seven or eight questions, okay, drawing on experiences of anyone in the room who’s in the conversation, kind of prompts to get people thinking about personal experiences that get them to like, agree or disagree with the claim and the counterclaim. That’s very helpful to a way to get shy students involved, because you could maybe even grab a shy student before the conversation and say, Hey, could you do number six on these prompts, I’ll like wink at you, and then maybe ask a question to the class. And let’s keep it moving. So anyway, kind of cool little strategies. But here was my other one, which I don’t like as much as my first one. But when is the time when losing patience is the right thing to do?

Dan Fouts  29:29

And then when is the time when patience is the right thing to do? Having patience is the right thing to do. I mean, essentially, this is a moral question for every student. They have to make a moral judgment on what is the right thing to do in given situations. A lot of these quotes Rene go to morality really, really quickly, as you notice with this one, so those are really good. Yeah. Okay. Well, we’re about at the end here. This has been really good. I mean, I think we took this quote and we were to claim and the counterclaim and brought in some great examples from teaching. And I think it’s interesting how patience and teaching connect very much. It’s a theme that definitely we work with in the teaching profession a lot and other professions as well, We really appreciated you coming on the show, Renee, you were a great guest. And you’ve provided some wonderful insights to us and everyone else. So we’re looking forward to putting this out there for the public. And they can get a lot of great things from it, too, as well. Thank you so much.

Renee Jones  30:30

Yeah, thank you for having me. This was a fun conversation. So I appreciate the time. Thank you Renee.

Steve Fouts  30:34

Thank you for tuning into the Teach Different podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation, and feel inspired by how easy it is to have great conversations with a simple method like this. Remember, every conversation is an opportunity to make a difference. So don’t be afraid to try out our method and see the positive impact it can have in your own life. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, and visit teach different.com For even more resources together. Let’s keep pushing towards a more united and compassionate society. one conversation at a time. Thanks again for listening. And we’ll see you next time on the Teach Different podcast.