“Reject the tyranny of being picked. Pick yourself.” Seth Godin – Self-Reliance

Transcript

Dan Fouts  0:00  

Hello, Steve and Dan Fouts here from Teach Different. We’re veteran teachers from the United States bringing educators together from around the world to learn a simple conversation method, which we model on this podcast for you. If you’re a teacher, administrator, or parent who wants to use the power of conversations to build stronger relationships and fight polarization, stay tuned to hear the impact our method can have on your discussions. Then join our Community of Educators at teachdifferent.com for additional resources and to participate in lively conversations among teachers and faculty, free for 30 days.

This week, we’re really excited to have a New York Times best selling author, Dave Burgess, here with us.  We’ve been using quotes from philosophers, past presidents, civil rights leaders, and others, but tonight, we have an entrepreneur, author, and speaker, Seth Godin. His quote touches on a lot of themes, but self-reliance is a key theme. 

I’d like to give a quick overview of the conversation method that we’re going to be using tonight. We start with a quote, then we interpret the quote, providing a reasonable claim as to its meaning. We put it in our own words. We agree with the claim, even if you don’t agree, for the sake of the conversation, agree with it. Then, we’re going to move towards the counterclaim.  We push against the quote to develop critical thinking skills and to see the world in a different way. Therein lies the tension of the conversation that our method generates. We end with an essential question, something for everybody to think about, and send you on your way. That’s the plan. 

I’m going to give the quote by Seth Godin, then invite Dave Burgess to jump in with his interpretation and to share a little bit of his incredible background. Here’s the quote, “Reject the tyranny of being picked. Pick yourself.”  “Reject the tyranny of being picked. Pick yourself.” Dave, welcome to the Teach Different podcast.

Dave Burgess  2:21  

Hey, thank you so much for having me. It’s my pleasure to be on the show.

Dan Fouts  2:25  

What do you think this quote means? 

Dave Burgess  2:29 – Claim

To me, this means that too many people think they have to be selected, or chosen. They have to wait for someone else to grant them permission to do something that they want to do in their life.  What this quote is saying is you don’t have to raise your hand, you don’t have to ask permission, you don’t have to be selected, and you don’t have to be chosen for the team. Go out and do it yourself. If there’s something you want, or work you want to put out into the world, then pick yourself and go do it, now. There’s no need to raise your hand or get permission to be selected.

Dan Fouts  3:04  

Love it and tell us a little bit of your background and how you live by this quote.

Dave Burgess  3:13  

I was doing professional development workshops on this program I created called, “Teach Like a Pirate,” and right away it became a situation where if I wanted to get this message out there, I needed to start submitting proposals. I needed to know what conferences to speak at. They aren’t going to come to me. They don’t even know who I am. Schools aren’t going to come and select me to be the keynote speaker for a professional development seminar. I need to go to them. So, I started submitting conference proposals all over the nation. When a conference organizer, in any state, said, “Yeah, you can come to do your Pirate thing here,” then I got a plane ticket, a hotel room, and bought a conference registration. I was going into debt at this point in my career. I went to the conference and I did my thing. I knew that if I got this message in front of people, that it would eventually take off. If I paid to speak at this conference, then people would see me, and maybe they would contact me to speak at their school. I had to take the first step.

The same thing happened with my book. A publishing company offered me a contract. We read the contract, and hated it. We didn’t like anything about it. The only thing missing was a ski mask and a gun, but I’m not a publisher. So, we did a ton of research, and decided to form our own publishing company. We didn’t like the methods that were out there, so we formed our own publishing company to try and solve some of the problems we saw in the industry. We published “Teach Like a Pirate” from a laptop at the kitchen table. We chose ourselves. We didn’t wait to get selected.  It’s almost surreal to tell you guys this, but this little book, that I wrote after most people had fallen asleep after teaching all day, and then published from the kitchen table, has been translated into Korean, two forms of Chinese, Russian, and Spanish. We’ve sold over half a million copies of it from our house.

What happened next was that other people became curious about how we did it. They didn’t want to sign those publishing contracts either. Once again, we chose ourselves and decided that we could publish other people’s books, too. We just did it. We did it with “Teach Like a Pirate,” so let’s do it with other people’s books. We started assigning people and became a full on publisher, still working out of the house. To this day, we are still working out of the house. We’ve published over 150 books from educators around the world. If your listeners are avid readers of professional development books, some of their favorite books may have been published from my house, like “The Innovator’s Mindset,” by George Couros, “Kids Deserve It,” “The Wild Card,” “Ditch that Textbook,” and “Learn Like a Pirate.”  All of these books were published right here at my house.

Steve Fouts  6:07  

I know why you picked this quote, Dave. Wow! You’ve lived it. If you hadn’t lived this quote, you would be doing something very different, and you probably wouldn’t be nearly as fulfilled. Your story is inspiring. I’m really in awe of it. Although, I feel like I have that bug myself. I don’t like to wait for someone to tell me when I can and can’t do something or tell me what I’m worth. That’s something you have to get from within. That’s what I see in this quote. The big word in the quote that I picked up on was tyranny. I’m thinking about a quote like this on the board when students walk in, and they see the word tyranny. Some of them aren’t going to know what it means. I love this part of great quotes. Circle a word like tyranny, and before you even have the conversation about the quote, talk about tyranny. Sometimes I’ll put the definition of tyranny on the board. I looked it up before our conversation, and the definition is, a cruel use of power or control. I feel like that’s what this quote is saying. Don’t let others control you. You can’t rely on others, because they could abuse that control. Control yourself. Pick yourself.  This is what I’m getting out of it. It’s great. 

Dave Burgess  8:06  

Yeah, so tyranny is an abuse of power. That’s what I saw when I read that publishing contract. Now, I’m going to tell you exactly how this went down. I did a workshop in Washington, DC at the NCSS conference, and a publisher sat in on my workshop. She came up to me after the workshop ended and said, “Hey, we’d like to meet with you.” We met in a coffee shop at the hotel, and they offered me that terrible contract. I went straight up to my hotel room, and googled publishing contracts, because I thought she was trying to cheat me. When I googled them, I found out she wasn’t trying to cheat me. That’s what they all look like. To me, it looked like an abuse of power. This is my intellectual property. I’m going to travel around, speak about this, build a social media platform, and you make this much money and I make this much money.  It made no sense to me at al. They wanted to take creative control on my project. They wanted to remove the edgy stuff, take out some of the rants, and all the things that they thought were too personal. They asked, where’s the data, where are the footnotes, and all this kind of stuff.  That was not the book I was looking to write. They not only wanted to take my intellectual property rights, but they wanted to change my message. They wanted to tone it down, and give me 10%. I’m going to be the one speaking and promoting the book, and they’re going to make 90%.  It was absolute tyranny.

Publishers used to be the gatekeepers. You had to have a traditional publisher in order to get your book onto the shelves at places like Barnes and Noble, or traditional bookstores. But, now we know that’s not where books are sold. If your book is on Amazon, then you’re for real. Anyone can be on Amazon, so there was a disruption to the publishing industry. How are books distributed? Well, now they’re distributed on an online platform like Amazon. Because of these disruptions in the industry, the gatekeepers lost their leverage, but their contracts don’t reflect that loss of leverage. They still have the same contracts that they used to have. The industry is based on an outdated model. Whenever you see an industry based on an outdated model, that means it’s time for it to be disrupted. We are trying to be a disruptive force in the publishing industry.

Steve Fouts  10:22  

You are. You picked yourself. It’s stepping out there, though, Dave. I don’t have to tell you this. It’s not like every day is great. It takes courage to get through the bumps.  Dan, I don’t want to leave you out here. What do you have to add to this?

Dan Fouts  10:46  

It takes courage, and confidence. You see the fruits of your labor, of being self-reliant and confident. When you see that, it generates a belief or faith that you can actually do it. It’s a snowball effect. Dave, when you put this quote in front of young people, I would start the conversation by asking questions like, what is something you’ve done, where you’ve relied only on yourself, and it worked out? You didn’t depend on anyone else. What did it feel like? Did it make you want to do it again? The kids need to hear these stories from each other, because I think the kids actually have these successes inside them. and they don’t share them with others. Kids who might not have had those successes, need to hear from their fellow students. 

Steve Fouts  11:47  

Bring those stories out, too.  Ask them, have you ever been left off the team? Have you ever been left out of a group of friends?  Encourage them to express how they felt. You’re fighting against something that’s natural, to be a part of something, to get affirmation. Then, ask them to talk about what it was like when they picked themselves. I think that’d be great to get the conversation heated up.

Dave Burgess  12:19  

Yeah. That’s something I talk to kids about all of the time. You don’t need permission to learn. You don’t have to have an assignment to learn. Too many kids look at school like they’re jumping through hoops. They’re sitting there waiting for someone else to tell them what they’re supposed to learn. What do I have to do? It becomes a checking off of boxes. I just have to check off these boxes that the teacher has presented for me. You don’t have to have permission to learn. If there’s anything that you want to know, to be, go get it.  Go after it.  It’s all out there at your fingertips. Just go get it. I didn’t know anything about publishing.  I didn’t know anything about hiring an editor, getting an isbn barcode on the back of the book, or about distribution, but all of that information is out there. The internet has made it all available. I researched, and if I didn’t know how to do something, I hired someone to do it. It’s all out there for you. Don’t let other people gatekeeper you.

Steve Fouts  13:28  

I think the word is agency. This is true agency. Many students and people don’t have it in the same way. This quote is telling people something that they need to consider, if they haven’t considered it before. This agency, the fact that you can do anything.

Dave Burgess  13:58  

Yeah, absolutely. When we hear people talk to kids, they ask what do you like. What kind of job do you want to get? Who do you want to work for? How often do we say to kids, what kind of job do you want to create? What kind of business do you want to start? It’s often about who they are going to work for, or who’s going to select them. How is this going to look on your resume? It’s always about someone else, someone else selecting us, as opposed to what we can go do in the world. When you look at it from the standpoint of a job, and you’re an employer. Do you want employees to just do the things that are given to them, or do you want people to proactively step out on their own? Have you created a work environment where employees feel comfortable making their own decisions?  That’s the kind of employee we want. We want employees that do this, but it’s not something we actively promote and teach in school.

Steve Fouts  14:56  

That’s a management philosophy. It’s not terrible to work for someone else. It’s about what that leader is like.  What do they want from you?  What do they expect from you? How do they want to empower you?  How do they want to keep you incentivized? You can have good management structures.

Dan Fouts  15:18  

I was just going to jump in with another example. I teach seniors, Dave, and they’re in the college search process. You want to talk about young people feeling like they are completely controlled by other people. What do I need to say in my essay? What do I need to do to do this? What directions do I need to follow, so that someone will accept me? It’s the same mentality. I see it all the time.

Dave Burgess  15:51  

In the book “David versus Goliath” by Malcolm Gladwell, the kid often thinks that he has to get into a big name school. That will mean success. Malcolm Gladwell says in this book that you’re better off being a big fish in a small pond. You can be just as successful, if not more successful from any of these smaller schools, as opposed to the big school. That could be your advantage, actually.

Dan Fouts  16:27  

Great point. Absolutely.

Steve Fouts  16:29  

Great point. I feel comfortable with this claim. We’re preaching to the choir. This is a lifestyle. Let’s make the pivot. Let’s take a deep breath, and think about what the claim is trying to say. Keep that in the back of our mind.  Now, let’s think of a counterclaim. Let’s think of a way of looking at the world that offers another perspective, but also provides some guidance, advice, or wisdom. It might not jive with go-getters who are picking themselves and don’t want to listen to anybody about who they are and what they’re good at. They’re just going to say what they are. What is the counterclaim, Dave?  Do you have one in mind? Dan, you as well. Let’s build something against this and create some tension.

Dave Burgess  17:56 – Counterclaim

I think there are a couple of different ways to tackle a counterclaim. One of the angles could be that this statement comes with a little bit of privilege. I’m saying, hey, just go start your own business. You don’t need to have a publisher. But, I’m a white, middle class male with a wife who has a full-time administrative job. I have a middle class income, capital to hire an editor, a copy editor, and print books. I have people who I can tap into and ask for advice. I have a network, and I’m socially connected. This statement comes with a bit of privilege. Why haven’t you started your own business and been successful? Well, maybe it’s not so easy for everybody. They don’t have the capacity, or space, in their life due to other pressing issues.

Steve Fouts  19:16  

It’s almost the privilege of agency. Everyone would like to think that they’re the author of their own destiny, that they can do anything. They don’t have to listen to anybody. They can determine their own self worth. But, you’re right. There are people in different situations where it’s not as if we don’t believe they could do it, they’re just not in a place where it’s realistic. That’s something to acknowledge.

Dan Fouts  19:57  

Another angle for a counterclaim is that being picked for something, and seeking the approval of others, has advantages. You feel wanted. Some kids are people pleasers. They want to do the kinds of things in class, or on the sports team, that make their teacher or coach proud, or make their parents proud. There’s a genuine, authentic satisfaction that comes from doing other people’s bidding. It’s not a negative thing. It’s one way to live, that might be a little safer, a little less risky, but equally beautiful in different ways.

Steve Fouts  20:49  

Here’s something you could ask the students to share. Do they know anyone who likes to impress people?  A person who is okay with someone else telling them that what they’re doing is right or wrong.  They almost want that, because that helps them know that they’re on the right track. They like impressing other people. They seek that validation.

Dave Burgess  21:24  

I think another possible way to look at this is that it’s going to be a mixture. I picked myself. I wrote the book that I wanted to write, and created the workshop, and we built the publishing company. But, at the same time, I have to design my workshop with the idea of pleasing the audience.  I wanted to be effective with the audience. I want the person who’s hiring professional development speakers to select me. Even as a business person, I have to be selected. My book has to be chosen on Amazon. Picking yourself doesn’t mean you’re rejecting the opinions of other people, or their feedback, because you need that input.  You can’t start a business and not care about what the customers think.  So in a sense, even when you pick yourself and start a business, you still have to take in the feedback of others and think about your target audience or clients. You want to be the person they select.

Dan Fouts  22:39  

You have to be a leader and a follower, and do them both very well to be successful in life. 

Steve Fouts  22:46  

Yes. Dave, that was beautiful. You made me think of the word tyranny.  Maybe tyranny isn’t bad, as long as the tyranny is a customer in your own business. If you’re going to have to do someone’s bidding, then at least pick who that is. Decide that on your own. You want to have that kind of combination that, Dave, you were referring to. Work for yourself, start your own business, but it’s okay to live up to other people’s desires, wishes, and expectations.

Dave Burgess  23:30  

I think it’s a matter of choosing to be of service. As a business owner, you see yourself as someone who is serving the clientele. You have to be intentional about what you’re doing. I think this book will be successful and sell, but I don’t believe in this message. So, even though I think it will be a successful book, I’m in control of my brand. I want to feel good about myself and feel comfortable about what I’m putting out into the world. So, you have to be intentional about who you’re allowing to influence you.

Who is going to be the tyranny that you accept into your life right, and is that in service to others.  I think it was Zig Ziglar who said the best way to become successful is to help enough other people get what they want. That’s what I’m trying to do, to get as many books as possible into educators’ hands that will be of service to them. The better I am at that job, the better I am at serving their needs, then the more successful I will be as a business owner.

Steve Fouts  24:53  

Yeah. Exactly. Back to the privilege idea. Have you gotten to a point where you can look at a book and know that it will sell? Like you were saying, if it doesn’t help you as a person or with your brand, then you can say no.  That’s nice to be able to say no. I think that as people are learning to have this autonomy, this agency, they might be in a situation where they feel like they have to take whatever is available to get them to the next level. Then, they can evolve into something that’s more, I don’t know, selective. I used the word privilege, but that probably isn’t the right word.

Dan Fouts  25:46  

Maybe the way to say this is that there’s a moral component with these decisions about relying on yourself versus relying on others. You have to have a moral center that supports you in making decisions about what you’re going to do. It’s not just about being successful.  You have to pick wisely. So, there’s a moral component.

Dave Burgess  26:14  

I also think that there’s an element of that. It’s not that you have to reject the hoops that you have to jump through, but that you can see the hoops. Maybe that is something that is going to serve. It may help you reach a greater purpose later. I had to jump through certain hoops. Derek Sivers has this concept he talks about. Early in your career, you say yes to everything, because you’re getting exposure, you’re on your climb up. You have to get in front of as many opportunities, as many people, as you possibly can. That’s what I did. I said yes to every conference, every single speaking opportunity. Anytime I could get a group in front of me, I accepted. Even when I had to spend money to get in front of them. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Then at a certain point, it transforms. You’re able to yes to only those things that excite you, that make you want to say, heck yes. I don’t speak at conferences anymore, unless I’m excited about it. I’m at a point in my career where I can say, no.  Now my calendar is filled with heck yeses. But, when I first started, I didn’t turn anything down, for any reason.  I think that’s important for kids to know, too.  They might have to go get that job, or work at that fast food place that they don’t want to work at.  To build their resume, they might have to work some jobs, or take some classes that they don’t want to take in order to graduate. Those things are going to eventually allow them to be able to reject the tyranny of being picked. They might have to go through some hoops first to get there.

Steve Fouts  28:17  

Well said. You run into that a lot with students. They want it now of course. They feel like they’re above these jobs, and they don’t like their boss. It’s a process. You just have to keep that goal in mind. Great. Yeah, that’s a really good way to say it.

Dave Burgess  28:39  

I talk to my son about this all the time, because he’s talking about getting a job that makes a lot of money. He doesn’t want to do that, he wants to do this. He says you have an Inc 5000 multimillion dollar business, I want to do something like that, too. Hold on, wait a second.  I went straight to college, then I got a teaching credential. Then, I taught for 17 years before I started my business. You’re 20 years old, and you want to make how much money? I wasn’t making that much money at 20.  I was working as a basketball coach during the day, and going to night school to get my teacher credential in order to have a 17 year teaching career, before it eventually led me to discovering the business that I wanted to start.  But, all that stuff came first. You don’t necessarily just get to jump right to it.

Dan Fouts  29:40  

They just see the end and assume that’s where they should start. Yeah, that’s a tough one.

Steve Fouts  29:46  

That’s a tough one. Role models are important, but they also are misperceived. Dave, you make it look easy. Why wouldn’t I want to do what you’re doing? They don’t see the struggle. They don’t see the hoops. That’s a tough one for kids.

Dave Burgess  30:04  

My first “Teach Like a Pirate” professional development workshop was in the summer of 2006, I believe. My book was published in the fall of 2012. I spoke for six years about “Teach Like a Pirate” before the book even came out.  The next book, book number two, wasn’t published until two years after that in 2014.  That’s when it started to spiral and all of a sudden, DVC Inc. books are everywhere. But, they don’t see how it started with me speaking for six years with no book.

Steve Fouts  30:46  

That must have made that book a lot easier to write. I’m just thinking about it. If you can get the verbal down, you probably had that so polished.

Dave Burgess  30:57  

It’s so true. I tell people all the time that I cheated. I sat down at the computer and typed out what I said in my presentations.  I had honed the message, and crafted it with real authentic audiences.  I had a chance to see what resonates, what doesn’t resonate, what do they want more information on, and all those kinds of things.  It became a better book in the long run.  Because the book was spoken before it became a written book, it had more of a conversational tone to it.  It feels like someone’s talking to you, as opposed to reading a textbook. That’s something we talk to people about all the time.  A person will come to us wanting to sign a book contract.  They want to publish a book, and then go around and speak about it.  I always say the same thing to them. Oh, no, you’ve got it backwards. Go speak. Craft your message, hone your message, and then write a book. You have it backwards. Of course, you can speak about the book and all that, but go out and test your message first.  Before it’s printed on the page, something permanent, you want to go out and get it in front of an audience first.

Dan Fouts  32:04  

What great advice to give on how to be successful and to get your message out there. Well, Dave, this has been great. Is there anything else? When people ask, how do I get a hold of Dave Burgess, what’s your stock response?

Dave Burgess  32:22  

You can find me at Daveburgess.com. I’m @BurgessDave on Twitter. On Instagram, I am @DBC_INC, and I have a podcast, the Dave Burgess show. And man, do I need to get another episode out. It has been a while.

Dan Fouts  32:38 – Essential Question

Fantastic. Well, we really appreciate you being on this podcast.  We end with an essential question that just gets people thinking and continuing to ponder the wisdom of the quote.  Again, the quote was, “Reject the tyranny of being picked. Pick yourself.” Our essential question is, when should you rely on yourself? Something to think about. 

Dave, we wish you best of luck. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your life experiences and your inspirations.

Dave Burgess  33:16  

It was my pleasure to be on the show. I really appreciate you having me, and I love the work that you two are doing.

Steve Fouts  33:23  

Thanks, Dave. 

Dan Fouts  33:24  

Thanks, everybody. We hope you’re walking away feeling energized by some great ideas, and have a sense of confidence that you too can master the art and science of conversations to make a lasting impact. We at Teach Different are dedicated to supporting you along that journey. Please visit teachdifferent.com to join our Community of Educators for additional resources and engaging discussion among fellow teachers and administrators, free for 30 days. We’ll see you there and next time on the Teach Different Podcast, take care!