“Pride must die in you or nothing of heaven can live in you.” Teach Different with Andrew Murray

Transcript

Dan Fouts (00:10)

Welcome everybody to the Teach Different Podcast. Tonight we have a quote for you from Andrew Murray, who is a minister from South Africa, born in 1828, lived till 1917, and he was a teacher and Christian pastor. So this will definitely have some Christianity angles to it, but of course, with these conversations, you can talk about them in the religious realm or the secular realm. It’s really the wisdom that’s being shared that’s the most important. So we’re gonna bring you that quote from Andrew Murray in a moment. As a refresher, this provocative quote is gonna be shared and then we’re gonna look at the claim of the quote, interpret it, put it in our own words, maybe attach some personal experiences to it. I think this is a good quote for that actually. And then work on a counterclaim. How can we look at this quote in a different way to see the world from a different perspective, but have it be just as reasonable? And then essential questions which animate the conversation and organic and Steve and I are realizing with these questions both in a community setting and a classroom setting, they just kind of come up. And I think, as a teacher, we’re often told, you gotta ask the kids questions, you gotta do this. And a lot of times they’re canned, they’re prepared, they’re not spontaneous and natural. And I think students understand that. What’s really one of the cool things about this method is that the whole art of questioning is a much more spontaneous, natural, organic thing. And I think that’s really nice to experience.

 

Steve Fouts (02:14)

I want to mention this to everybody who’s listening, if you are a parent or you may know some parents and you are looking to help Teach Different with something, we do have a favor to ask you and that is to reach out to us and be part of our program. We’re calling it a certificate program that we’re gonna be creating that’s gonna help parents use this Teach Different method with their kids. So we’re trying to get a group of like really passionate parents together to work with us to really make it an incredible program. Just contact us somewhere on the website, say who you are and we’d love to work with you.

 

Dan Fouts (02:58)

So here we go, Andrew Murray. This is a 17th century Scottish minister. Here’s the quote, pride must die in you or nothing of heaven can live in you. Pride must die in you or nothing of heaven can live in you. Steve, what’s your first thought on the claim of this quote from Andrew Murray?

 

Steve Fouts (03:26)

Truthfully, I had to look up pride, and here’s what I got. A feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired. That’s a lot for pride, but I just want to take this feeling of pleasure or satisfaction from your own achievements. This quote seems to be saying that when you focus on your own achievements and you develop, kind of, a sense of pride, a swelling of pride, it’s going to hold you back from a greater place. And it’s going to prevent you from either understanding something greater or maybe even achieving something greater when you’re starting to focus on yourself and your own achievements. And that’s an interesting take on this, right? And that’s the claim I’m getting. You shouldn’t want to achieve things for yourself. You should want to achieve something for its own sake. I’m gonna read that into it.

 

Dan Fouts (04:55)

Okay, interesting. Pride must die in you or nothing of heaven can live in you.

 

Steve Fouts (05:04)

It’s almost like you have to fail before you can become great or…

 

Dan Fouts (05:06)

My claim, pride must die in you. So this feeling of your accomplishments, that you’re a good person because you’ve accomplished these things, that must die. Otherwise, nothing of heaven can live in you. So now my eyes are going right to the word heaven here. It’s a positive thing, obviously, here nothing of heaven. I’m thinking synonyms of goodness, of holiness, of, you know, very positive, uplifting, eternal things. So there’s something then, pride must die in you or nothing of heaven can live in you. There’s something about pride that takes you away from good things in life.

 

Steve Fouts (05:48)

That’s good. And I think building on that, if you’re only thinking that your achievements are achieved by you and you’re taking credit for all of it, you are forgetting that there are other people that are involved in your success. You’re missing the wider view of maybe, a community that helped you become who you are and you’re so focused on the way you’re looking and how successful you are, that’s missing truth. There has to be some type of maybe acknowledgement or recognition that great things can only be achieved by more than just individuals. I’ll read that into it.

 

Dan Fouts (06:59)

Yeah, and I would add to that, there’s an ethics of put others in front of your own needs here that’s embedded and assumed going with what you said. Heaven, the only reason why heaven can live inside you is that you put away feelings of your own happiness and your own credit and accomplishment. Presumably, I think like what you’re saying, you’re giving it to other people or you’re acknowledging that other people are just as important as you are.

 

Steve Fouts (07:35)

That’s one way. That’s one way. Here’s another thing you could be saying. All these achievements are worldly possessions and good, and that they’re admired by people, it builds your reputation, but they’re not worth it. That’s not the reason that you should be doing something. And it really isn’t the real reward, the earthly kind of prizes you get for things. You have to give up on that stuff. Then all of a sudden, you’re in heaven in a way. You’re away from what most people care about. You’re doing something for the sake of it. And I think that that’s maybe the religious connotation that you can get from this. This is a way to not busy yourself in the world and realize there are other things that are more important.

 

Dan Fouts (08:37)

Okay, so let’s get practical with this. This definitely has religious undertones here, but connecting this to maybe an experience of being on a team and thinking that the success of a team was only because of your accomplishments. If you walk away thinking that on a basketball team or a soccer team, or heck, if you’re in an orchestra, or any kind of situation where you’re relying on other people, a group effort, in order for something of good to be expressed. If you’re thinking that you did it, if you’re being prideful, you’re not acknowledging the right things. You’re focusing on the wrong things. And so what’s living inside you is not heaven, okay, heaven meaning putting others before you and so on, this is how I’m reading it. But what’s living inside you is you wanting to take credit. And in that way, in a way you’re polluting the experience.

 

Steve Fouts (09:48)

I would even add in that it’s the pride of a team that could also make the same mistake where, you know, your team is thinking, you know, you’re the best thing ever, but you’ve got to realize you’re part of a larger system and that heaven, I see heaven as actually a greater sense of accomplishment and pleasure that you’re missing out on. You’re thinking that the pride of winning and your accomplishments are the good that you want, but there actually is a greater good. That’s another way of kind of thinking about it.

 

Dan Fouts (10:26)

Yeah, I wanna go counterclaim here.

 

Steve Fouts (10:28)

Counterclaim.

 

Dan Fouts (10:35)

Pride must die in you or nothing of heaven can live in you. Pride must live in you for you to live your best life. That’s what I would say, messing with some words a little bit here. That there is a very positive good that comes from acknowledging your own sense of accomplishment, being proud of who you are, and going to bed at night with a high self-esteem. What’s wrong with that?

 

Steve Fouts (11:12)

Yeah, and if you got your self-esteem by being the number one team and you won the championship, well, that’s an accomplishment. That is something that has value and it does build self-esteem and there is satisfaction in it. Does it have to completely die? Is it bad to feel like you’ve accomplished something all the time? It’s bad? You know, what about when you’ve worked hard at something and you come to a point where you succeed and you’re trying to learn a lesson? If I stick to something, I will achieve something. And then you reach it, what’s wrong with being proud?

 

Dan Fouts (12:00)

It’s a worldly pleasure. What’s wrong with that? I’m going with your question. There’s nothing wrong with that is the counterclaim. It makes you feel good. We’re always telling people, take pride in your work. Take pride in your accomplishments. Feel good about yourself. It’s the way to move forward and succeed in life.

 

Steve Fouts (12:04)

Yeah.

 

Dan Fouts (12:25)

That makes sense to me.

 

Steve Fouts (12:29)

Because I have people say to me, you know, I really like having a conversation with you. You’re a good listener. I actually do take pride in that, because that’s something I work on. It’s not easy always, right? You have to sacrifice yourself and you have to make room for people and be patient. And doing that, I appreciate people who look up to me and just say, whoa, I wish I could be more like that. And then I have a little inner smile. I don’t want to beat myself up for that.

 

Dan Fouts (12:44)

Yeah, that’s what we do. Of course not.

 

Steve Fouts (13:08)

I’m ready to flip to the claim again though.

 

Dan Fouts (13:11)

Yeah, can, well, my flip back to the claim is gonna take the form of one of those organic essential questions I referred to at the beginning of the podcast that is now in my brain that was not in my brain 15 minutes ago. And that question is something like this. When can you have too much pride? Where you ruin the sense of goodness as to what you did, where you cross the line and you take too much credit or your team takes too much credit and they’re too proud of themselves and they’re blinded by the goodness of other things. When is that too much?

 

Steve Fouts (13:58)

Yeah. How do you, how do you know when you’re too prideful? That’s kind of where I was going back to the claim. Maybe the consideration is it’s fine to achieve things and have that moment in the sun where you smile inwardly. But if you try to stay in that state and you think that you’ve arrived somehow and you don’t have any more work to do and you kind of get slack it a little bit. That’s a problem. You get overconfident. So that’s, I’m going to go with your essential question. How do you know when you are too prideful? When can you really appreciate your achievements and like pick yourself up and be your best cheerleader and have that be productive? And when is that destructive and gets in the way of heaven?

 

Dan Fouts (15:00)

And what does Andrew Murray mean by heaven in this quote? The religious interpretation is obvious, but beyond that, if you want to take a, ⁓ I guess, a little bit more secular definition of heaven, what does that look like? What is heavenly when you deny pride for yourself? And to answer it, it has something to do with serving others and thinking of others and thinking of the whole and not just you, thinking of you being connected in a wider, more meaningful world as heaven.

 

Steve Fouts (15:44)

That’s one definition. I’m going to say mine is a feeling. It’s actually a pleasurable feeling that you’re missing out on. And maybe that is something like when you’re helping others and when you’re humble, the feeling you get from that type of human activity, I’m thinking back, in 1993 when we went on the Mississippi when it flooded and we filled sandbags with all those people we didn’t know. And we just did that for two hours and filled sandbags with a bunch of strangers. But I remember the feeling I was having then was so, it was liberating. It was light. It was uplifting, you know, cause everyone around you was there for the same reason. And no one was there for a negative reason. We were all there to help someone that you can’t get that when you’re prideful.

 

Dan Fouts (16:44)

Right, and the heaven was the connection with others. You’re part of a larger humanity. You’re not alone. And I would bring in the experience, and I know you’ve had this as a classroom teacher, when you get a class that is clicking on all cylinders. And I have that at the end of the year here. We’re wrapping up in a couple weeks. This class, these classes actually have had a really good year.

 

Steve Fouts (16:50)

Yeah.

 

Dan Fouts (17:13)

They are understanding each other. They’re speaking with each other. They’re listening to each other. Nobody in class is prideful when they share their intelligences with the room. They are just as willing to listen and be humble as to state their mind. And so that’s heaven in the teaching profession when you can somehow get that through the mix of personalities. So that’s my immediate connection.

 

Steve Fouts (17:41)

That’s good. I’ll connect the origin story of Teach Different where in 2018, when I had a really bad class, my pride was hurt when I struggled controlling a class at the beginning of the year. was 18 year veteran and my pride was hurt and it created a lot of like sleepless nights for me for that one class. And then, you know, I took Jarvis out into the hall and he shared the traumatic event. And I came back the next day because I realized there are things in the world that are going on that are a lot worse than my pride and my feelings of how I should be this good at this, but I’m not. And it’s creating a bad mood and making me an ineffective educator. And it really kept things in perspective for me. You know, I realized whenever you realize people are going through things worse than you are, it helps, I think, grounds you with the pride.

 

Dan Fouts (18:48)

then you have to be paying attention in order to realize that and to get out of your own head.

 

Steve Fouts (18:51)

You do. You’re not alone. Because that’s what I did the next day. I brought in a quote and we had a conversation. I wasn’t alone. Why was I putting all the pressure on myself? Like everyone’s there. Just let them express.

 

Dan Fouts (18:58)

Sure. It’s letting go. Here’s another question. How do you let go of your pride? Because it is a letting go. And there’s a control that we have over our pride and our ego and not wanting to come off like we are hurt. Being vulnerable is a difficult thing. And that feeds into this as well.

 

Steve Fouts (19:20)

That’s really good actually. Yeah, be still is another kind of way to say that. Be still. Don’t try to always be in control of things and then you will succeed at times.

 

Dan Fouts (19:52)

Right? Let go, listen, be humble, think of the community before yourself. There is a lot of ethics in this quote. This is great. Andrew Murray, thanks for joining us today. This is great. Let me read it again and then we’ll wrap up. Pride must die in you or nothing of heaven can live in you. Hope everybody enjoyed this and you can use this quote.

 

Steve Fouts (20:03)

Definitely. Good stuff.

 

Dan Fouts (20:21)

with your families, with your communities, with your classrooms, wherever you have great conversations. Thanks for joining us tonight and good luck with your conversations. See you next time.

 

Steve Fouts (20:32)

Thanks everybody.