“Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it.” – Teach Different with Mark Twain – Loyalty

Transcript

Dan Fouts  00:06

Hey everybody, welcome to the Teach Different podcast. We’re here again with our second episode of our podcast live in our online community of practice, which is a private community at Teach Different where we have conversation plans that teachers and others use in their classroom. We have quotes, classroom ideas, and all kinds of cool resources. So we’re excited to fold in our podcast inside our community. Today, we have a great quote from Samuel Clemens, otherwise known as Mark Twain that is going to be discussing the idea of country and government and loyalty. The theme of loyalty is going to take center stage. Very excited about this conversation and it’s great to have people here. For those of you inside the community, you’re welcome to just come in, we have a couple of people who’ve dropped by already. And you’re free to come in and go as you want. If you want to chat in a question, that would be great. And yeah, we’ll try to read it and incorporate it into the conversation that we have. Great to be here.  So we got this quote from Samuel Clemens. The Teach Different method, remember, we’re going to start with this quote, we’re going to look at the claim of it, the counterclaim and then maybe ask some questions throughout, organic questions that come out by virtue of the tension between the claim and the counterclaim, that inquiry, that curiosity. So as you’re using this, by the way, whether it be in a corporate setting, or a school, or in any kind of institution, it’s very, very helpful to be on the watch out for those really good questions that come out of the discussion itself. So here we go. That’s the method let’s put it to work, right here with a quote from Samuel Clemens on Loyalty. “Loyalty to the country, always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it.” Loyalty to the country, always. Loyalty to the government, when it deserves it. Lots going on here. So what’s your first read of this, Steve?

Steve Fouts  02:33 Claim

Basically, this is saying, There’s something about where you live, and where you grew up, that you always need to remain loyal to. And there’s something else called the government, which is something that you really don’t need to be loyal to, unless the government deserves it, which to me means unless the government protects you, and preserves your rights, etc. So I just think that the claim here is that you should expect to be treated well by your government. And that that is a man made thing, that’s a human thing that you should be loyal to. But they also have to earn your respect. They have to be something that is good enough for you to be loyal to it. Whereas, for instance, if I grew up in France, or Serbia, or Sweden, I should have a connection to my homeland that goes beyond what the government is. I need to associate myself as a French person or as a Swede or as a Serbian.

Dan Fouts  04:03

I think that’s good. The words conditional and unconditional came to my head. Loyalty to the country always. So that’s unconditional loyalty, no matter what-  loyalty.  Whereas the government is more of a conditional loyalty, only when it deserves it.

 Steve Fouts  04:29

Loyalty is just a really, really important word on a human relationship level. And then this is of course, bringing up your loyalty to something greater than yourself, you know, your community in a way. Now, I do have to point this out about the uniqueness of American history. America is one of the few countries I would say whose government has the same history as its country. And that’s not entirely true, though, because there were early Americans here in the 1600s. So I’m going to actually take that back. But for the most part, our entire country is linked to our government, in the sense that this was this great experiment of freedom, the Bill of Rights and to create a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. And really our idea of a country since we all came from different places, a lot of our sense of who we really does come from our government system and what it’s allowed us to do. I’m just pointing that out as a unique quality of America.

Dan Fouts  05:59

The Pledge of Allegiance makes me think of loyalty to the country. Why should everyone’s stand for the pledge, or at least this is what we’re told in school, you know, stand for the pledge– that is expressing loyalty to the country, regardless if you disagree or agree with the government at that very moment, that the country deserves your support, your patriotic support. I’m also thinking about in times of war, when there’s a draft, the mantra is also you have a loyalty to your country, above and beyond whether or not you agree with your government, that this is a just war. I mean, think of Vietnam, think of Iraq, and the world, Vietnam with the protests, and people deciding, you know, I don’t want to be loyal to my country, because I don’t agree with my government. Well, it’s interesting, you mix it. I don’t agree with my government, therefore, I’m not going to be loyal to my country, nor my government. I’m going to disobey the laws of my government, and actively go against my country, but then can I just go against myself right there. Many would argue that they’re actually being loyal to their country by expressing their conscientious objection to a war. So again, that’s a matter of perspective.

Steve Fouts  07:32

All right. So the way you’re looking at this, because you said the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, that’s the country. The government is the Bush administration, the Trump administration, the Biden administration, whoever is currently in charge of the reins of power?

Dan Fouts  07:56

I would say it’s broader than that. I’d say it’s broader than just the person in power. It’s the levers of checks and balances. It’s the separation of powers. It’s the whole structure of the government in the Constitution.

Steve Fouts  08:12

Okay. And then there’s the United States of America. All right. This is a hard distinction but he is making it in a way where I really do think the focus on the claim is that as a person, and you know, Samuel Clemens was an American. And he was someone who lived in our society, and enjoyed a lot of the freedoms and all the other things that we associate with living in the United States of America, that is far superior to many other places to live. But he’s saying– you shouldn’t be loyal to your government, unless it deserves it.

Dan Fouts  09:03

Do you think he’s saying and if you read this whole thing, “loyalty that the country always loyalty to the government when it deserves it”  Is this another way of saying, protest? If you don’t like something in your government, stand up and protest,

Steve Fouts  09:21

This can be used to justify a protest. I love the United States of America, but I’m gonna burn the flag, because I believe that the rights that were given me through the government, allow me to do that and that freedom of expression.

Dan Fouts  09:39

And that by burning the flag, I am expressing loyalty to my country. I am embracing the values that I agree with as an American, is what some people would say. Others would say no, you’re not — you can’t desecrate that venerated object and say you’re loyal to the country. So that’s obviously a source of disagreement, but I see that.

Steve Fouts  10:03

Take January 6. And people who participated in that event were protesting an unfair situation where they felt as if they had to speak up, and they had to go in and right a wrong. They were not, quote unquote, loyal to the transfer of power. Because they thought that it was unjust. And that there shouldn’t have been a transfer of power, that there was a, whatever discredited election and some shenanigans that went on that justified that situation. So they said, I’m not loyal to that. I’m going to come and you know, make my voice heard. And I’m going to get in the way of that.

Dan Fouts  11:06

So that’s the protesting of the government side of this quote is what you’re saying? It’s not deserving of my loyalty. I am going to participate in this insurrection.

Steve Fouts  11:18

Right. Exactly. And if you talk to any one of them, I’d say most of them, if you sat them down, and you said, Do you believe in the flag? Do you believe in this country? I think you would get people to make a distinction between the government of America and then what America truly is. I think that they would make that distinction. Now, the scary part with that is we all saw the pictures. They were taking American flags, and they were throwing them at police. And they were breaking windows. And I guess you just say, that’s the heat of the moment type stuff. That doesn’t mean that they weren’t true patriots. On some level, they at least I think thought they were. So I don’t want to read too much into that. But that’s what’s happening here. They thought that it didn’t deserve their loyalty.

Dan Fouts  12:24  Counterclaim

“Loyalty to the country, always loyalty to the government when it deserves it.” I am now seeing the protest angle here. If it deserves it, great. If not, do something about it. Are you ready for the counterclaim?  I’m going to read it again and think of something. “Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it.” I could take the second half and say, loyalty to the government, always.  So it would be “loyalty to the country, always. Loyalty to your government, always.” Because you don’t have a country without a functioning government. And you don’t have a functioning government without loyalty to its laws. So on some level, you have to agree to follow the law, even if you disagree with it. Protest, great, but follow the rules. So go back to the January 6 thing to push back against that, you’d say the Constitution says this is how the peaceful transfer of power works. We follow it, and you got to follow it. This is not something to protest unless there’s legitimate evidence and so on.

Steve Fouts  12:40

Well, and there’s the rub, because you get people thinking there was that.  And look, here’s where this is headed to me.  Let me throw another counterclaim that really just kind of blows this thing in the water a little bit. You can say something like, loyalty to people, always, loyalty to the country and to governments only when they deserve it. And why do I say people, because our strongest feelings of loyalty, I think go toward people and not toward these ephemeral ideas of what a country is or a government. I think a lot of people think of that as just something you’re kind of stuck with. And you don’t need to be loyal to it. You need to obey it, maybe. But you don’t need to be loyal to it. Now our veterans in our military would not think this way. They have to think of loyalty as to how to help preserve society. And so they’re on another level in my mind.

Dan Fouts  14:56

Preserve the government. We don’t have a government if we’re not loyal to the country.

Steve Fouts  15:02

Exactly.

Dan Fouts  15:05

Going with that, you said loyalty to the people, but how about loyalty to your family? To the community. Maybe that’s kind of where you’re going there.

Steve Fouts  15:17

Well, and I’ll talk about the elephant in the room—  loyalty to one man, or one woman, loyalty to a leader. So an actual personality.. 

Dan Fouts  15:31

And a political party — loyalty to a political party,

Steve Fouts  15:36

And when you think of a ruler AS the government, you conflate the two. A political party, which is kind of an extension of a person.  That I can see a lot of people arguing that that’s what you need to be loyal to– not the other stuff. You need to close ranks, you need to have someone else’s back and know that they have yours. And that’s how you survive. And, you know, if you look at the dynamic that’s happening with Trump, right now, and the type of loyalty that he supposedly expects, and that he’s getting from some people, that’s what’s propelling him. This is a feeling that I’m going to stick with you through thick and thin.  The harder it gets for you– and the more you get persecuted, and you get accused of wrongdoing, the more I’m going to be behind you, because I’m loyal to you. That’s a strong, strong sentiment that can overcome a lot. And country and government– Come on, that doesn’t come in here. You know, that’s secondary, and or, That’s what ends up happening at different times. And, you know it’s scary, because loyalty is very, very important. It’s an important sentiment to have to people, for people. But my biggest thing about loyalty that makes me nervous is this–  If I’m loyal to someone, and they’re doing some stuff that’s wrong, it’s obvious, it’s wrong. They’re putting themselves in harm’s way. They’re putting others in harm’s way. But here I am, and I gotta be loyal to them. If I’m going to continue that loyalty to them, I become an accomplice, to whatever they’re doing.

Dan Fouts  17:39

Of course, yeah.

Steve Fouts  17:41

That’s the definition, right? But the reason why that concerns me is that I didn’t choose those behaviors. And the minute I am starting to become invulnerable and in trouble for someone else, and their actions, it makes me nervous, because I can control myself.

Dan Fouts  18:03

That’s the deal with the devil– if you’re supporting someone who’s doing something that is wrong, then you open yourself up for being punished for other people’s actions and thoughts. So loyalty will get you in trouble. Think of just on a peer group level. If you’re loyal to a peer group that’s doing bad things, you are an accomplice to that immoral behavior. Here’s another one. How about loyalty, another counterclaim angle “loyalty to the country always loyalty to the government when it deserves it” Loyalty to your conscience-  Always.

 Steve Fouts  18:44

That’s what Einstein would say. The quote already in our community, “Don’t do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it.” There you go– Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Loyalty to your conscience. That’s a counterclaim.

Dan Fouts  19:08

That the individual’s conscience is the pinnacle — it demands the most loyalty than all of these things.

Steve Fouts  19:18

Now, I’m kinda warming up to that one.

Dan Fouts  19:22

If your conscience aligns to the country, if it aligns to the government, then that’s a bonus. But it has to be consistent with your conscience. Otherwise, it’s not going to work. Your moral conscience.

Steve Fouts  19:42

That one becomes a problem when you have a society where people grow up and they’re not educated about their government, and they don’t understand why their government is the way it is–like in our country, and you lose an appreciation of it. You start thinking of your conscience in your personal life as something that’s always being thwarted from the government and society, and you’re not realizing that some of the freedoms that you have are there because of the government. Because there are people that had the foresight to think through what the future would be like and how to protect your freedom The minute you lose an appreciation for that, which I think we’re at the point in America.  I think a lot of people do not appreciate what this country has done for them. And they just feel like it’s all about them.

Dan Fouts  20:42

That, of course, depends on what group we’re talking about. Because with certain marginalized groups in society, you can make a powerful argument that it has not done enough for certain people, and that the country and the government doesn’t deserve loyalty, because it has acted in ways that are not morally consistent with what’s right.

Steve Fouts  21:07

You’re right. But what I’m seeing out there now is that there are so many groups now that feel wronged, that had an injustice done to them, that are always fighting for their own rights, and are always trying to make their voice heard, and to say how they have been hurt, and how that’s the most important thing for the society to address. And you got everybody in doing that. And again, that’s maybe partly what America has that we’re happy to have, which is a place where if you feel that you’re mistreated, you should demand more from your government. We’re always an imperfect union; we’re trying to get better. Maybe that’s a good part of America that we have a lot of people that quote unquote, complain about their situation.

Dan Fouts  22:07

Maybe it’s a strength, maybe the discord is a strength. It’s a natural extension of a government that is predicated on freedom, and petitioning the government for redress of grievances right there in the First Amendment. “Loyalty to the country, always loyalty to the government when it deserves it.” I’m thinking of a question here.

Steve Fouts  22:36  Essential Question

And the question must have loyalty in it.

 Dan Fouts  22:41

What’s more deserving of my loyalty– My country or my government?

Steve Fouts  22:47

Or throw in the family. Is there anything I should always be loyal to?

Dan Fouts  23:01

What deserves my unconditional loyalty? What deserves conditional loyalty?

Steve Fouts  23:10

And you know, what can I nitpick at conditional loyalty? I know exactly what you’re saying and how you differentiate it from unconditional. But conditional loyalty isn’t loyalty in my definition of loyalty,

Dan Fouts  23:26

Not mine. It is to me.

Steve Fouts  23:30

If you’re deciding when you should have someone’s back, that’s not loyalty. To me, that’s more of a calculation. It’s more of a self-interested decision. Whereas loyalty is like, ride or die.

Dan Fouts  23:47

Well, where do you get such a black and white definition of loyalty? Give you an example– a team– you’re on a basketball team and you’re loyal to the team, until the coach tells you to do something that is inappropriate, or that breaks the school rules or something and then you quit the team. So your loyalty was 100% committed to the team, but it was conditional.

 

Steve Fouts  24:20

The definition of loyalty, it just says a strong feeling of support or allegiance. So I guess you could lose that feeling of support, or allegiance if you felt that it didn’t deserve your allegiance anymore. 

Dan Fouts  24:37

Well, and think of a family. Think of how many people grew up in families where there is a sense of genuine loyalty. And then somebody does something and the family dynamics are screwed up, and the child decides not to be part of the family anymore.

Steve Fouts  24:58

I mean, there you go. I’m thinking of, of urban setting Chicago, where I did my teaching– peer groups, the gangs– lot of loyalty, in gangs a lot of loyalty. So when you grow up, if you don’t have that strong kinship tie to your nuclear family or your immediate group of people, for whatever reason, you can always seek that out. And I do like the idea that family is more of a concept of the people that you appreciate– you look up to you value, and it’s less so biological. But I’d say loyalty is definitely associated with biology quite a bit. Here’s another thing -definition. Loyalty is a devotion to a country, philosophy group or person. Okay, so you can be loyal to a lot of different things.

Dan Fouts  25:57

And that’s why I like this conversation in a lot of different settings. Because it’s going to lead to an exploration of loyalty in settings, separate from just country and government. I think people will talk about their families or how about loyalty, their boss? Imagine this in a corporate setting… You’re doing this with employees… That would be interesting. Loyalty is a very versatile word.

Steve Fouts  26:35

Yeah, I like the psychological questions. Do you think that your friends consider you loyal? Who’s your most loyal friend? And why? What is it? How do you know someone’s loyal? Because you know people disappoint at times, right.  You thought you’re with them but you’re not.

Dan Fouts  27:00

What does a loyal American look like? How do you know?

Steve Fouts  27:04

Military.

Dan Fouts  27:06

How do you know somebody is a loyal American?

Steve Fouts  27:10

Anybody willing to put their life on the line for something outside of their family, themselves, and for really, us, for your country. That to me is loyalty. You’re going to follow orders into battle, no matter what. I just saw a good video on the Navy SEAL six members who actually killed Bin Laden. And he was talking about how when he went on that mission, he didn’t expect to come back. And he was talking about all his decisions when they got into the house, and they were going up the stairwell, and he broke open the room — he said at all points I didn’t think I was leaving but I did exactly what we did to be trained. And I was there for a reason. And people were depending on me.  It was very moving. I have a lot of reverence for that.

Dan Fouts  28:10

Yeah, that’s definitely loyalty.  Also, think of a person who spends his or her entire life as an activist in politics, fighting and fighting and fighting to change laws that are discriminatory, that are not in the public good, that need to be changed. And people who fight and contact their representative and petition the government. You could make an argument, they’re just as loyal to the country for the very fact that they believe that it can do better than what it’s done. It’s a different kind of loyalty. But in the same way, as you described, it’s a commitment to something higher than their own interest. Adherence to that is worth a lot of praise.

Steve Fouts  29:06

I would say loyalty to something higher. I would hope everyone has something. And it could be religion as well. But loyalty to something outside of yourself — in this case it’s country. That is really important. And it’s a thought provoking quote. How do you think we’re doing here? We got some good questions.

Dan Fouts  29:36

Yeah. I think the questions flow. I really see this having legs. And whichever audience people would use with this will go into some interesting directions. You will learn a lot about the people in the audience in this one. What are they loyal to?

Steve Fouts  29:58

I would want to put that question out — for all you facilitators out there, when you’re trying this technique, you always want to be thinking about good prompts, and have a few ready, before you introduce the quote, and let everybody talk about the claim and the counterclaim. I think asking about personal experiences with loyalty will go a long way here. That’s a huge word.

Dan Fouts  30:27

As a teacher, it’d be interesting to say, where would you put the teachers, students?  Loyalty to the teacher always, or loyalty to the teacher when he or she deserves it? There’s so many spin offs to this.

Steve Fouts  30:41

I get the sense that it would be when they deserve it.

Dan Fouts  30:46

All right. Well, yeah, good. I think it is a really good conversation. I think this is a great one to use. I’m really excited about how people can take this one and run with it. I’ll say it one more time “loyalty to the country, always loyalty to the government when it deserves it.”  This is our second one in our Teach Different online community of practice.  We’re going to have a conversation plan created on this conversation that we’ll put inside our community for our members. So we’d encourage everybody to check out becoming a member yourself. It would be wonderful to have you. Okay, well, thank you so much, everybody, and we’ll see you next time. 

Steve Fouts  31:33

Take care