“Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done, because they want to do it.” Teach Different with Dwight D. Eisenhower – Leadership

Transcript

Dan Fouts  00:00

Welcome everybody to the Teach Different podcast. We’re excited tonight — we have two guests from the Denver Public School Area DSST and I looked up the acronym because I’ve been saying DSST for a while and I didn’t even know what the acronym was — Denver School of Science and Technology. So this is a network of college prep, charter middle and high schools in the Denver area. And we have Fonda Held, and Molly Naylor with us who are both part of that district and this is a very exciting podcast for Steven me and Teach Different because this is our first podcast that’s showcasing educators who are involved in one of our projects called Building Bridges Colorado, which we started about four months ago in January, where Teach Different got together with some philanthropists in the Boulder area. And they supported an initiative that we are doing inside the DSST school district where we’re training teachers on the Teach Different method. And so we have Fonda and Molly both here who can speak to what’s happened a little bit in their district and their experience with the Teach Different method. And we’re just really excited to hear from them, very thankful, of course, to the philanthropists we’ve been working with in Boulder. This could never have been possible without their support. So with that, I wanted to just give you, Fonda, a chance to introduce yourself and just talk a little bit about the workshop that we did with you. And then Molly, you can follow her up and discuss your experiences with the Teach Different method. Welcome, Fonda.

Fonda Held  01:56

Thank you, because you’ve given me the space Fouts, I’m gonna run with this. And I’m gonna go a little further back than just the topic and just share with all of our listeners that Dan, who’s Mr. Fouts to me, was actually my high school government teacher. And I was definitely on the path towards being a lawyer and wanted to go to law school. It was like the early 2000s. There’s a lot of women and movies fighting for justice. I was very inspired. And then I had 12th grade government with Mr. Fouts and everything changed. And I think I pivoted my curiosity and my quest for justice thinking about that as like a teacher and how I could help other students question every government policy around them. And so I think that’s important to share. And we’ve just stayed in contact throughout the years. I ended up teaching high school civics in Chicago. And fast forward. Now, I have relocated to Denver, really, really grateful to be a part of DSST. I’ve been in other networks. And this is the one where I’m seeing a lot of leadership development, for teacher leaders and so on. And it’s super intentional. And so thanks to the philanthropists that we had to support this project. We are able to bring the protocol to our cohort of 15 teacher leaders.  And so these are teacher leaders who have a variety of roles. Molly can speak a little bit to her role, but we have people who support special education, multilingual learners, grade level teams, department, team staff engagement, and so it was a super diverse group. And there were two goals that I had in leveraging this project. One seeing our teacher leaders as learners. So they actually got to engage in the process themselves and grapple with a quote that I thought related to coaching in terms of do we think people can grow and change, which is a really powerful conversation. Now I’ll hand it over to Molly now. She is a  teacher-leader who was able to then use that protocol in her own practice the next week. Shout to Molly– the next week I observed her lead a PD with her staff using this protocol. So yeah, Molly, if you want to jump in and just share a little bit.

Molly Naylor  04:25

Yeah, my name is Molly Naylor. I’m the ELD coordinator, English Language Development Coordinator at one of our DSST schools in Aurora, Colorado. We’re a really innovative school. We partner with Anschutz Medical Campus and a lot of other partners to really create strong STEM identities within our students within that, like the role of language is just huge. I am a linguistics nerd. And so I in the past that’s what I studied in undergrad and continued on through my master’s as well. That passion really bled into really providing like strong language practices for schools and for students to be able to engage in language is so flexible and multimodal, that having any type of linguistic repertoires really needs to be seen and heard within, especially like our classroom settings, where we do have like a ton of linguistic diversity. And so when I experienced this Teach Different method, with Fonda and the Foutses, I was just like, I need to bring this to my classroom immediately. The really huge reason why is because for any student connecting to their background, and what they already know, is going to be critical to make sure that they’re engaging in the content and that it feels real and true to them. And so at that time, I’m currently co-teaching a world history class. We’re going through World War One. And there were a lot of themes that we were talking about that I wanted to make sure students were really connecting with. It was a long time ago in their eyes, but like, there’s a lot of themes that continue to come up through history. So I used Teach Different as a way to build background knowledge each week before we got into new topics or time periods within that war so that students were able to really think through not just the events that happened, but the themes that continue to pop up. I was also able to bring it like Fonda said to my staff members. I’ve been leading some professional developments that allow for teachers to again, create those robust linguistic or language opportunities within their classrooms. And one thing that we were talking about is what where do we go from? Or how do we use compliance to then dig deeper? So compliance sometimes is like the first level to be able to say, okay, we’re all on that same level to go deeper and to really make creative change. And so that was a quote, I forget the exact one I need to pull it back up. But it was around compliance. And so teachers have discussions around the question– is compliance good? Do we need it in order to create change in our school? So really huge appreciation to the Foutses and to Fonda and also our philanthropist here in the state of Colorado for bringing this to us, and allowing these rich opportunities to engage.

Fonda Held  07:21

Molly I think that Fonda and the Foutses is like a new band that we need to create perhaps

07:30

Steve Fouts

Alliterative. That’s awesome. Thanks for all that, that’s just exciting. Really cool.

Dan Fouts  07:39

So great to be here with you guys. Well, so here we go. We’re gonna just jump in and you guys have used the method, you’ve experienced the method and now we do the method together on this podcast. For those unfamiliar who haven’t yet heard one of our episodes, we’re going to break down a quote. Molly was referring to quotes, right? We start these conversations with a provocative quote. And then we’re going to interpret the quote, give the claim of it, what does it mean? What personal experiences can you bring to bear to show the truth of what it means? This quote, and then we’re going to push against it. Talk about the counterclaim to the quote, something that’s equally true, but kind of disagrees with the original contention of the author of the quote, and then we ask questions throughout that happen organically. That’s the method. It’s simple, yet really, really profound. So tonight, we have former President Dwight D. Eisenhower, with a quote on leadership, which is apropos based on you guys both as leaders of the DSST network, this should fit really well. So here we go. I’ll say the quote twice and then Molly, or Fonda, you have the first crack at the claim as we usually do. So here we go. “Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done, because they want to do it. Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because they want to do it.”  What do you think?

Molly Naylor  09:29

I see we’re both like go for it Fonda. Why don’t you go first?

Fonda Held  09:32  Claim

So you’re talking to the claim Fouts, yeah? I think what stands out to me about this is that through his leadership lens, I think he’s leading with his vision. And the hope is that that vision is carried out by others in ways that they’d like, feel invested and empowered by and are like, ready to execute on.I’m looking forward to the counterclaim and unpacking this a little bit. But I think that’s a big theme there.

Molly Naylor  10:07

Something that’s standing out to me is this idea of art, meaning that it’s not linear. It’s not like, do this and this and this and this and then you will, you know, get someone to do what they want. But it really is like this creative notion of putting things together, knowing the person to be able to creatively put that together and see, see that come to fruition where people then see the value in whatever you want them to do, or whatever needs to get done.

Steve Fouts  10:41

Right. And. No, go ahead. Go ahead.

Fonda Held  10:45

We talked a lot in our leadership program. If you remember, Molly,  different types of leadership styles. This feels way more visionary and less directive, like you’re not super clear that I’m telling you to do this. There’s an art that’s taking place to build that momentum.

Steve Fouts  11:01

Yeah. I like the word visionary because that’s a very positive word. Can I give a less positive word? Deceptive. I don’t know. It’s funny, when I first saw this quote, I actually went immediately to relationships with people, not necessarily like marriages, and things like that, but really like friends and people that are really close to you, when you need to work with them or you need to get something done. You’re not going to tolerate one of you being the master and the other one being the servant, that never works that way. You have to really key in on what that other person wants. And you have to kind of be a little clever sometimes, to make them think that something might have been their idea, even though it was yours. Or just kind of get them motivated in ways where you’re directing them, but not really. And you’re getting something accomplished, hopefully. But they’re the ones that are really motivated to do it. And you just had to be a little bit humble, and give away a little bit of credit. So that you can smooth that over and make it work. I don’t know if that makes sense. But that’s how I immediately reacted to it.

Molly Naylor  12:35

Now that definitely makes sense. It’s funny, because now that you both say deceptiveness. I see both sides. I first thought of it as like what you said Fonda, the visionary, right? If you’re really, if you’re a relational person, and you’re able to provide that vision, and then make that be creative and how you use your words to get someone or your actions to get someone to do something. But now I’m also seeing that other side of it of light that could also be deceptiveness. As I’m thinking, I’m thinking more about that counterclaim now, too. But yeah, it’s interesting, like both takes that you can have on it.

Steve Fouts  13:13

And maybe it’s both right. What do you think Dan? 

Dan Fouts  13:18

“Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because they want to do it. ” So it’s, it’s working with people’s motivations as the key to unlock your success, working with other people’s motivations– finding, I have to go to the classroom here. When you find what motivates students, then if you can plant that seed, and you understand that, then they will do what you want them to do. But you have to spend time figuring out what it is that they want. Because there are certain students who will just listen to you and comply. But many others, the only way you’re gonna get them on your side, is if you spend relational time figuring out what moves them. So that’s what I think he’s getting at here. Spend time with followers and figure them out from the inside out. Not from top down.

Steve Fouts 14:31

Yeah, don’t rely on power structures, external hierarchies, treat it like a person, I’m going to get back to something positive. I started out with the word deceptive. I’m going to build this back here. It’s like, you know, we don’t want to, nobody, very few people like power relationships, just period. They want to be motivated to do something and that’s what this quote is saying. Right? I thought of another kind of context for it at the church, at my church. We do not have a lot of resources at the church, financial-wise, but a lot needs to get done. We have a pastor who’s trying to grow the church. And guess what, you can’t do it alone. You need volunteers. These are people that are not paid. They’ll take direction. But one thing I’m noticing about volunteers, a lot of times, they want to help but on their own terms, you know, they want to do certain things, they don’t necessarily want to just be ready to do something that someone else is telling them to do. So you really have to have this leadership quote, I think in those types of settings.

Fonda Held  15:58

I’m hearing about relationships, knowing others motivations is like a toolkit for the art potentially. And I think Fouts, it was helpful when you thought about students for me that made me feel more positive about this quote. If I’m thinking about my hope, as the leader in the classroom is that I have like high rigor, learning assignments for us. And that we get motivated to do that, because we know that’s going to create learning and growth and access. So that made me feel more positive. I still am feeling less inspired by this as a leader of adults, like this isn’t a quote I would ever want to have as like an anchor quote for my leadership. And I think if I could summarize what I don’t like about it. Do you want to hear that? I don’t know if your church example actually I think relates in a way is that I don’t I hear a lot about the individual leader. And I don’t hear anything about the collective vision or how I as a leader can change and grow in the way that I’m bringing people along with me. As a school leader, I have a vision that I work toward, but my people are the people who helped me move toward that. And like Molly’s, you are a teacher at my school, I would welcome your ideas about how we get things done, the process I’m open to. And so there’s something directive about this that doesn’t resonate with me. But tell me what you think.

Molly Naylor  17:35

I’m still feeling chummy with this. I don’t know if that’s the right word. That’s a terrible word. But I don’t know, I still think maybe it is because of that teaching Dan, like how you were talking. It really is– what is the motive? What are the motivations of students so that we can get that? Adolescents aren’t always going to want to do 100% of the things that we do. That doesn’t mean it’s bad for them, it means that they’re developing and growing, right. And we do have that kind of like meta awareness about that. The thing, I think the word that is still like, tripping me up is leadership is the art of getting something, someone else to do something you want to do. It’s something that needs to be, needs to be done or like is in the a service of whatever vision or whatever you have, and then that because they want to do it, I think that would make me feel more really on board with this quote that want is not there is not making it there for me. But I also think about leadership in general and I’m thinking about my leaders within the school, even Fonda.  I want to do things for Fonda and for my director because I know that they need to get these things done but they also bring me on board with whatever rationale they have in the back of their mind as well. So I’m thinking about myself, not as a leader but also as a member of a group that’s seeing this leadership, how I would perceive it as well.

 

Steve Fouts 19:11

I like that. And I have had leaders in the past that I’ve actually wanted to do things for them. And I don’t know how that fits into this quote. But that’s I think a good sign for a leader– if you want to do something for them that I think fits into this quote.

Molly Naylor  19:49

Well, I think it’s just taking on that different perspective of how do you feel so like I’m curious, maybe Fonda and Dan to like how do you feel if you are the person who’s experiencing this leadership? You know that they need these things to get done or want these things to get done. Does that change your perspective at all?

Dan Fouts  20:09

Yeah, I’m thinking back to the visionary thing. If I’m in a group where there’s someone setting a really strong vision for something, and then they give me flexibility and leeway to pursue it myself, and I truly believe in it, then I really do feel like I want to do it. And I would know that I am pleasing the leader, but the leader has structured it in a way where my actions are aligned with their actions. And so I’m, I’m happy to be part of that synergy, so to speak. So I think I have been at the other end of this, and I think I prefer to be led this way. Not always though, I want to go to the counterclaim so bad right now. But I think I like to be led this way, generally speaking.

Fonda Held  21:15

I think I’m one end, my want could come from a relationship, not because I believe in the process that’s been presented to me. So if my leader is going to say, hey, we have to do this, and I can tell they don’t feel good about it and I don’t feel good about not believing it, but they’re transparent with me. Hey, this is coming down for me because of this. We need to move forward in this direction, that transparency can improve my want, or impact my want to show up as a teammate. And then I think, Dan, you’re talking about the empowerment piece more. So when I was an AP I was told, like, hey, we’re gonna dismantle AP tracking. That’s what we want done. But now you run with what that looks like. That’s really motivating to me, because I have a voice at the table. 

Steve Fouts 22:03

I like your teammate motivation, Fonda, when you might think that the decisions you’re making and the actions you’re taking aren’t really ideal. And you might even sense that in the leader, as well. But whoa, can that build a relationship, when you show them you have their back!  And how productive that can make the next decisions you make. And if you look at it over time, it was important to do something because someone else got you to do it, or that you wanted to do it for them. I really appreciate that.  I didn’t go into my career as a teacher thinking about that. I kind of prided myself on I’m going to do things, you know that what I believe is right. And, you know, if my leader screws up, they screw up, and it’s my job to criticize them. I’ve come to see that a part of your job is to be a good follower, part of your job is to be loyal to someone when they need you. You know, that’s a slippery slope but important. So I wanted to agree with you.

Dan Fouts  23:20

Transparency is key there. If the leader is transparent, that’s the authentic kind of vulnerability, then the followers can step up to the plate and be loyal and see it through. That takes some vulnerability for a leader to do that. 

Fonda Held  23:41

Y’all need to come back to our pipeline programming. I’m laughing because we talk a lot about healthy teamwork and this sort of communication.

Dan Fouts  23:52

How about a counterclaim?

Steve Fouts  23:54

Why are you ruining the party?  Who’s got a good counterclaim that they can say in fewer words? This is kind of a longer quote for us.

Dan Fouts  24:12

“Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because they want to do it”

Molly Naylor  24:27  Counterclaim

I am thinking about this not necessarily opposite but a very stark difference from visionary. It is directive where you’re doing this to get it done. We’ve all had you know, bosses, people in our lives that have done that and so I think it goes towards that side of things. I don’t care if you want to do it—it needs to get done and like that motive may still be good, right? I think leadership can still have that motivation if this doesn’t need to get done for a reason and there’s rationale. However, it’s more of the directive no, you have to do it and because why? Because there’s a hierarchy there.

Fonda Held  25:17

Yeah, that resonates.

Steve Fouts  25:20

Very legitimate.

Dan Fouts  25:23

Makes me think of Dwight D. Eisenhower. He was the Supreme Allied Commander in World War Two. And I’m thinking he has to tell people what to do. There’s no art here. I’m going with the counterclaim here. There’s no art involved in leadership sometimes because art seems to be a little bit misdirected, a little bit creative. You mentioned deception before, but keeping it positive it’s more circuitous. But sometimes leadership there is something that needs to be done, there needs to be compliance. And there needs to be clear orders and follow through. That’s good leadership in certain situations, depending on what the problem is, If it’s a crisis, for instance, at a school or in an organization, you don’t need to figure out how to work with people in this roundabout way to get them to want to do something, you have to tell them what to do, because there’s a situation that needs to be addressed. So that’s where I would go with the counterclaim.

Fonda Held  26:38

I think what’s critical about what you shared was like some situations, and I think we’ve talked about in our leadership pipeline, is that there are many leadership stances and the context you’re in determines which stance you need to take. And I think a problem that young leaders make is that when they’re directive, a couple things happen. They’re not sure they’re being directive with themselves, they’re not even clear that they’re taking a hard stance. And that impacts their confidence, and then the way they communicate it to folks. So people are unclear about if it’s direct or not, and why there’s no transparency. So what I like about this is that we’re not like vilifying specific leadership approaches; we’re honoring that different contexts require different moves as a leader. Leadership is hard is the tag here.

Molly Naylor  27:30

Well, I think it’s interesting, kind of, for you pointing that out. I think that in the claim and counterclaim leadership the art can stay the same. Right? In both cases it is like an art. In this first one, like in the claim you know that visionary side in the second is like directive, but I think like there’s an opportunity for like a third of like leadership as the art of knowing when to use different types of leadership, so that you can get people what you need/want to do in service of whatever vision you have in mind. So there’s that third piece.   And probably fourth and fifth. I mean, honestly, I think it could go on and on.

Dan Fouts  28:10

I love that, Molly, that’s great. 

Steve Fouts 28:19

When I was teaching in Chicago, we would have district level employees come in, of course, to observe our classes. And we used to joke around the teachers in the building about here comes the adults who are giving us help we didn’t ask for. But putting that aside. they were positive people and they had directives, you can tell. And you could also tell, I could tell, when they were sharing things with me and asking me to do things, but not telling me to do something, but it was clear there was an agenda with what they wanted. And I always would smile on the inside. Because I would just watch them and how they negotiated this very difficult situation where they are being evaluated on me on some level, and they also have to get me on board. Right? So I bring all that up because I have to share this thing I did out of the blue once with someone and I had a bad day. I was frustrated. And he came in and he was telling me what I needed to think about and what I needed to do and the strategy that he wanted to see in my classroom. And I got frustrated. So I said this. “Could you model that for me? Could you just come in and do this? I don’t know why it took me 15 years. At that point, that was my 15th year or so– why did it took so long for me to ask that. But I bring it up, because in a way that feels like a counterclaim. Another way to look at leadership is model the behavior you want. Don’t be clever with this stuff. Leadership is not some ephemeral, you know, art, it’s more of a don’t ask anyone to do something you wouldn’t do. So I did this with him. And he came in. It didn’t go well for him. And I promise you, you have to trust me, I did want him to do well, because I had no, you know, I didn’t want to be a troublesome teacher. And to have him think that I was doing this because I knew he wasn’t going to do well. But he didn’t do well in my classroom. They don’t like other teachers coming in. I kind of knew that already. But he sat down afterwards. And it was a pretty positive experience, actually. So I just throw that out because I think that leaders have to be ready for that. They have to be ready for people like me, if they’re going to be good at what they’re doing. And whatever their strategy is to try to get someone to do something. If they’re sensing that that person is questioning their motives, or just isn’t biting on this, as a leader, you definitely want to step up and just say, Do you want me to come in? I would do this if you want to, you know. So anyway, there’s my story/counterclaim.

Fonda Held  32:08

Think what’s super interesting about that is like you’re bringing now into it levels of leadership. And so like, honoring that person who came in, and that shout out to them for coming in and modeling with a class that’s not theirs, like they’re in this place in between, so I’d have a lot of questions for them. What does support look like for you? What was the directive that you got? How did you think about the context you’re walking into? I think that’s really important to what you’re talking about.

Steve Fouts  32:42

Definitely, definitely, I should have asked him more about his side. I really should have done that.

Fonda Held  32:56

Dan Fouts, what’s sitting with you?

Dan Fouts  32:58

I’m just messing, manipulating the quote a little bit. Leadership is the art of getting other people to do things they don’t want to do— is how I would change the language of it. And back to what you said, Fonda, it’s situational. I’m thinking of my department chair, how she has to get us to do things that we don’t want to do. And I won’t bore you with what that is. But in a department meeting, probably 90% of the tasks that we come out of the meeting with are things that we don’t really want to do. And so there is an art, I’m gonna stick with the word art, of getting us to do that and being okay with it, being positive, staying focused, it goes to the transparency again, Fonda what you said.  It’s, you know, okay, we have to do this because of this. But having a group, I mean, there’s 15 People in our department, having them committed to doing things that they don’t want to do, because we really do respect our leader and will listen to them and follow through with it. That’s an important aspect of leadership. Because much of what you ask people is not in their own self motivation. So anyway, I’m really looking at this counterclaim.

 Steve Fouts 34:31

You’d replace because with, ‘even if’ they don’t want to do it, right, yeah.

Dan Fouts  34:38

I mean, that’s one way to reword it.

Steve Fouts 34:41

Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done, even if they don’t want to do it,

Dan Fouts  34:48

Even if they don’t want to do it.

Fonda Held  34:50

So what I would add to that, then, is like, leadership is the art of getting folks to understand why you want something done, because there’re really reasons why the department chairs bring those things to you. Part of it might be directives. Part of it is like, people aren’t hitting the mark, and she’s holding y’all accountable for like, there’s a lot that’s going on to what she’s bringing to you. So it’s like, are they helping us understand the why? And even are they creating the space to ask questions?

Dan Fouts  35:21

That’s good.

Fonda Held  35:24

Again, leadership is hard. Is the tag of? Molly, what were you going to say?

Molly Naylor  35:30

No, I’m just thinking about, I’m thinking about it all. I think about this vulnerability piece, too, right? When you’re, you say it was your principal, or like, whoever came into your classroom, whoever your boss was, came into your classroom, started to –that vulnerability. So it’s not only what you what you what you all were talking about.  I’m wanting a very clean cut, like, this is what it is. But it’s obviously not that right? It is going to be, it’s going to change depending on the circumstance. I was also, and I don’t know if this is anything– I was thinking about how is this different? How is educational leadership different, as opposed to other types of organizations, right, who don’t deal with humans? There’s plenty of organizations that deal with humans each day, but I’m in a classroom with small humans; they’re not small. they’re large, large humans, like developing humans. How does that change it for me? I’ve been in education my whole career now. And so I’m just thinking about nothing is ever going to separate from what’s best for kids and families. Right? So that’s going to be my constant thing. So even if my director tells me tonight we had our exhibition night. Did I want to stay until 630? At school? No. But absolutely, I will. I’m not going to, I’m not going to question that because kids are showing off the work that they’ve been working hard on for two months, of course, I’m going to show up and be there for my kids and families. So I’m trying to think about other organizations where — is this the same–  can it still apply to those different pieces too?

Dan Fouts  37:20

Oh, go ahead Fonda.

Fonda Held  37:21

I mean, I think Molly just speaking like mission and vision. This is compelling for us, right,education. So I feel like I don’t really know what people do outside of education. So in those sectors, yeah, is it? Are people motivated by that mission or vision? wherever they are? And they’re the leaders making whatever decisions they are making clear that that’s in motion for those things? I think that is the same.

Dan Fouts  37:48

I would say, I would say yes, definitely. I think that the layer in education is that you have the school and the leadership of the school setting vision and mission for the teachers. But then the teachers have their own microcosm, inside their own classrooms. They are CEO, customer service representative, evaluator, they have so much control over their own clientele. It makes it very difficult for a school administrator to pull this leadership art off, I think, in the right way, in the right situations using the right approach. So in that way, teaching is a difficult leadership structure. I think the whole education world is like that.

Steve Fouts  38:52

Can I share a hope I have for leaders in education everywhere? And since Fonda and Molly are here, this can hopefully be used if you think it’s valuable. I was in a system, Chicago system, Chicago Public Schools, very big system. That wasn’t always good at differentiating rules, procedures and things for different types of schools and situations. You kind of had a one size fit all– it wasn’t all– it was clumsy a lot of times but what I always wanted someone to say to me, who is coming in to help, I wanted them to ask me about who I was as a person and kind of do a strength analysis. Appreciative Inquiry. I don’t know what the fancy phrase or word is, but get to know me as a person, and how I’m not good at everything. I’m really good at certain things, but I’m not good at everything. So let’s start there. And then let’s talk about what it is that you want me to do or what I need to comply with. And I always wanted that kind of personal touch so that I felt that somebody kind of had my back and was trying to help me be successful, because they knew what I was good at. And that just shows that, hey, they believe in me, you know. I believe in these kids, and let’s make it work together. But I rarely got that. I would always get the wooden I can tell you said this to 20 other people. So anyway…

Dan Fouts  41:00

Relate that to the quote, then– you’re saying that you would have done more things for leaders, if they had engaged you as a human being?

Steve Fouts  41:14

Are you kidding me? They would if they would have made me feel that I could share with someone what I thought I was good at. I’d give them anything. I try anything they give me. But I was always defensive.

Dan Fouts  41:30

You’d probably also comply when they asked if they…

Steve Fouts  41:35

That doesn’t help anyone. My heart’s not in it. The kids sense that.

Dan Fouts  41:40

I’m just saying if you had to comply with a rule that you didn’t agree with, but you felt like the leader had your back because they engaged you, then…

Steve Fouts  41:50

Oh, and that you throw in transparency with that one. If I knew what they were going through, and I could empathize with that– no problem, not an issue but anyway, just wanted to share that.

Fonda Held  42:08

So I left the classroom to study Ed policy. My response to that is it’s a systemic problem. It’s not an individual. And so for that person who came into your room in that way, my guess is that no one that supports them is asking them anything about themselves, what they’re good at, or what their vision is. It starts at the top. And that’s why the levels of leadership here matters. And I think even like the frame of what, so I think I’m at a central office right now. If I were to come to your class, see, I would ask – how can I help? I’m here to listen. How can I listen? And understand what’s going on for you and your classroom? And what are my initiatives that are happening at the district and what do we do with that information? So I guess I hear your hope– I love it. And how do we ensure that folks who are supporting schools have the healthy teamwork and a leader who was mastering this art that we’re just talking through? Oh, what do y’all think about that? Molly, does that make you think?

Molly Naylor  43:13

I’m just thinking about how are we redefining leadership? Or what we have, at least what I’ve come to know, as leadership growing up.  I’ve told you this before, when my director said you should apply for this leadership program– I was like absolutely not. I don’t consider myself a leader. I also have never seen really strong leadership, within school system.  It’s just like a broken system. Why would I want to be a part of that? And what I’m learning is that first of all, there is strong leadership, my school based leadership is super strong for all of the reasons that we’re talking about now. They see me as a human first, like a couple months if someone passes away in my life, they know, and they treat me as a human first and what I need first, and I will follow them to the ends of the earth. They’re seeing me as a person, which I know that then I can give that to, to my students and families too. But I’m also thinking about, like, my definition of leadership growing up was very different. And it was based on my family, what they like, taught me what leadership was, and I never saw strong leadership where it wasn’t directive or where it wasn’t you need to do what I say, right? And here’s no reason you just need to do it. It is a systemic issue. And also, it’s just unlearning that narrative that leadership can be an art.  It should be an art. It should not be someone who is just like in control of everything. It needs to be dynamic, and that’s what we’re missing. So that’s just what I’m just thinking about– how do we recreate that narrative especially as education? We’re continuing to work with a broken system; we can’t continue to work with this idea that it’s broken, and that’s just how it’s going to be. But how do we actually start flipping these narratives on their heads?  Because we need that; , we need that for ourselves; we need that for our students and families to be able to thrive.

Fonda Held  45:28

Steve, there’s something so beautiful about thinking about you and that person who came into your room– you forming a front, what we could do together.

Dan Fouts  45:40

And really, to kind of bring this to the method that we’re using right now, that we are communicating, we’re having a conversation, we’re becoming more self aware, we’re asking questions, we’re validating our personal experiences. The people who’ve been through this method, the kids that were teaching, the teachers were teaching, they’re going to lead a certain way, if they have practice communicating like this, and this is why Steve and I talk about this behind the scenes all the time. This is a leadership conversation method, as much as it’s, you know, for a world history class, Molly. We’re training leaders, student leaders, maybe we call it that way. So it all starts with great communication, I think.

Fonda Held  46:33

And teachers– who are leaders– will feel strongly about that.

Dan Fouts  46:37

Whether we like it or not. Well, this has been great. We didn’t really get to an essential question. We usually do that a little bit. But actually, we flirted with one about, I think, situational…

Steve Fouts 46:55  Essential Question

How do you know what type of leadership style to use in any given situation?

Dan Fouts  47:05

There you go.

Steve Fouts  47:07

What’s your process for finding that out? Something like that.

Dan Fouts  47:12

That’d be a great interview question– for someone applying for a job.

Steve Fouts 47:18

And if the answer is don’t communicate with the person that you’re trying to lead, they don’t get hired. 

Dan Fouts  47:29

Well, Steve and I want to thank you, Fonda and Molly, for doing this with us. We really appreciate working with you guys. And we’re excited about working with you guys on into the next year. I mean, this project we’re doing is not ending. It’s flowing forward and so happy that we’re able to get this project going with you guys, and to be excited about it. It’s just wonderful. And again, thanks to our supporters, who make this possible. Anybody else with parting words?

Steve Fouts 48:09

We got Hannah in June right then? Is that the plan? Yeah.

Dan Fouts  48:13

Yep, another DSST teacher next month.

Molly Naylor  48:19

I just have a lot of gratitude for you both, Steve and Dan, just the support not only providing this method, but just the ongoing support as well. It’s obvious that you both really believe in this and the transformation of our educational system, and making sure that students and leaders and anyone involved in education are having these robust conversations because they are important; we are not done learning that’s I mean, that’s why I’m a teacher I constantly learn right? And so I think the support that you’ve given along the way has been very instrumental in my development this year as well and then always Fonda– a huge shout out to you too for your development as well.

Steve Fouts  49:03

That’s awesome.

Fonda Held  49:06

Yeah, I think my hope would be that educators and leaders don’t have a lot of time to pause and actually talk about anything. Everything’s pretty reactive and you know, the day to day of schools, but the power of having these conversations I think can create change.

Dan Fouts  49:25

Absolutely. Well, again, thank you so much, and we’re looking forward to working with you guys very soon. Take care. Bye bye.