“Blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” Teach Different with Albert Einstein – Authority

Transcript

Dan Fouts:  0:00

Well, welcome everybody to the Teach Different Podcast.  Tonight we have guest Albert Einstein. No, actually, we don’t have guest Albert Einstein. We have wisdom of Albert Einstein on a quote with obedience and truth that’s really, really fascinating that we’re going to get to in a moment. And we have a few things with Albert Einstein already in our library, so this will be a really nice addition. And, not only is Albert Einstein’s wisdom going to be part of tonight’s episode, but we also have a wonderful guest, Laurie Pasler, who’s going to be introducing herself once — everybody knows the drill, right? Once we start talking about the claim of the quote, she will introduce herself. But she’s from Descendants Media Group, and she’s got a really interesting background that she’ll get into just a little bit, and the amazing project that she’s currently working on that was the inspiration behind this quote, and we’re really excited to have her with us. And we’re starting to kick around ideas of working together in different capacities. All right, so for those unfamiliar, the Teach Different method is going to come alive here. We’re going to have this provocative quote from Albert Einstein. I’m going to read it twice, and then as a group, we are going to work through the interpretation of the quote. We’re going to say what it means for us, what personal experiences might we have that validate the claim. Believe in the claim. Make it make sense, have it come alive, and then we’re going to push against it. We’re going to say, you know, I agree with it, but also we could look at it this way, and we’re going to look at that counterclaim, and we’re not just going to play lip service to the counterclaim. We’re going to actually think in a different direction. And this is that critical thinking piece. If our listeners out there, if you’re using this in your classroom, this is where your kids are going to get perplexed in front of your very eyes. You’re going to see them thinking about the world from different perspectives, which is so important. And then the last part of the method, of course, are the questions, those organic questions that are going to come up during the conversation when, you know, as a group, when we get perplexed together, oftentimes we have to ask questions to resolve our confusions, and that’s what we do here. So, Laurie, we can tell you this, don’t wait on the questions. If you have one, just throw it out there in the middle of our conversation. So there you go. That’s the setup. And now we’re ready to get into Albert Einstein’s wisdom. Here’s the quote. I’ll say it twice, and then we’ll have Lori weigh — “Blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth. Blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” Albert Einstein, Laurie, welcome to the Teach Different Podcast.

Laurie Pasler  03:17

Thank you so much, Dan and Steve for having me. It’s great to be here, and getting to know you over the past few months has been so enlightening and educational and fun too. So my background is that I’ve lived in the corporate world for more than 25 years, marketing and corporate communications as a producer and creative director, and the kinds of things that I work on are a lot of media projects. I do a lot of design work and video and audio and interactive training. But I think the connection to Descendants Media is that when I lost my dad nine years ago in 2015 I inherited his hidden World War Two memorabilia from working at the Nuremberg trials, which he had never told us about, none of us. And I was so surprised, I was really the gravity just hit me, this history, these badges, these smuggled army documents, hundreds of onion skin pages and signatures of the major war criminals there, and I knew nothing about it. So of course, I went online to learn about Nuremberg. I wanted to know what my Dad’s experience was like and why he kept it a secret. And I had such a hard time with the available resources that I thought I would make it a project, use my skills as a producer and create a new way to teach the Nuremberg trials to future generations through immersive digital experiences. And you know, everyone’s so accustomed to absorbing information in quick bursts these days – bite sized, because it’s the key. Make it approachable. Make this really unexposed period of history exposable and fascinating to middle school, high school students and to lifelong learners. So that’s what I’m working on. And since you guys deal in quotes a lot, I’ll tell you my favorite quote. It’s from Steve Jobs, and it really defines the way that I live my life, the way that my professional life works, the way my brain works. “Creativity is just connecting things” and so connecting the dots between how to teach history and how to engage people, is what my goal is with the Courtroom 600 project. And by the way, Courtroom 600 is the name of the room where the trials occurred after World War Two. So that’s me, and that’s what I’m working on. Now I’m supposed to tell you about the quote, right?

Dan Fouts 06:02

Yeah, “Blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” What? What comes to your mind?

Laurie Pasler 06:09  Claim

All right? Well, Kool Aid. First of all, drinking the Kool Aid. And then I had to think about that a little because we use that colloquialism all the time in different ways. But that actually originated in 1978 from a cult, the Jim Jones cult in South America, where he was fascinated with Stalin and socialism, and he was even fascinated with Hitler, and so he was able to woo a large group of people all the way to South America, and then when things didn’t go, long story, and I know you know that he got everyone to drink cyanide laced Kool Aid in a mass suicide murderer. So I would call that blind obedience to kick off.

Steve Fouts  07:13

When I read this quote, “Blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy to truth.” The first thought I had was, what if I took away the word blind? Would I agree with it then? And so I read it as obedience to authority is the greatest enemy to truth– that didn’t feel is compelling to me, because obedience to authority isn’t necessarily a bad thing, is what I’m considering. Because, you know, if we don’t look up to authority figures and we don’t follow rules and adhere to systems that we don’t always like all the time  -if we just give up on all that, it’s not going to be an ideal situation. But if the reason so I’m going to throw blind back in there, if the reason we’re following authority, if we don’t even know the reason, I guess that’s what blind means that, at the very least, creates a risk, some type of risk, and this idea of greatest enemy to truth, I could use either of your interpretations of what exactly you’re reading that as. But you know, my claim would just be it’s not being aware that you’re giving your power to somebody and you’re succumbing to their power. It’s not being aware that you’re doing that, that’s the greatest threat.

 Laurie Pasler  09:10

Well, blind obedience is in my estimation, it’s laziness. It’s you’re not doing your own due diligence, you’re just following along. And if you can’t check in with yourself, where is that going to take you?

Dan Fouts 09:29

I like that. I like that. It’s almost like you’re lazy. Blind obedience is laziness, and when, if you interpret blind as lazy, I’m with you, I see the claim that if you’re just obeying authority because you’re lazy and you don’t want to think for yourself, well then that becomes an enemy of truth. Life in the sense that you might be pursuing a really, really bad idea and not even know it, because you haven’t done the hard thinking necessary to discover how evil it is or how bad it is. So I get that if I’m hearing your line of thinking, Laurie. 

Laurie Pasler  10:22

Yeah, laziness, that’s just it. And just because others are doing it doesn’t mean that it’s right if you don’t want to, if you don’t want to see for yourself.

Steve Fouts  10:36

And that actually shows a lot of faith in people. The notion that as long as we’re critically thinking for ourselves and we’re not acquiescing and going along with people blindly, we’re going to be closer to the truth. We’re going to be, you know, less apt to do bad things or get caught up into harmful movements if we, if we critically think for yourself. I’m still focused on this idea of the greatest enemy to truth. I’d love to hear like, what’s is truth just the way things truly are? I mean, it’s seen the world in a very clear manner, without confusion, without. What does truth mean to you in this quote? I mean such a big word, sorry.  Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we’re done. We, we’ll figure that out later. What’s truth? But okay, but let me.

Dan Fouts 12:01

To answer your question, though, I think that in this statement, “blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth.” It seems to suggest that truth is more complex. And if you blindly follow someone and think it’s simple and don’t and be lazy and just accept things, you’re thinking of truth as a very basic, uncomplicated, easy thing. So I feel like this is saying that life is more complex than you think, and you need to use your head to reveal that complexity and stop being lazy about it.

Laurie Pasler  12:45

So life is just a big red easy button.

Steve Fouts  12:51

And you use the word complex, I mean that I wasn’t thinking of that, but I now am thinking that it’s this idea that relying on someone else for the truth is a big part of the problem. Maybe, if you think for yourself and you don’t follow other people’s commands and orders, you’re you’re going to live in a more enlightened world, like you’re going to you’re going to be, I don’t know, I want to say, a better person, but you won’t be duped. You’re going to be more clear eyed and discerning if it’s you that’s deciding things and you’re not relying on others, because one thing I’ve realized is that it seems like a lot of people want authority to tell them what to say, to do, to feel, to believe. People like giving that to someone else and then following that. And I’ve never quite understood it. Maybe it’s a personality trait. They just prefer a more authoritarian type relationship with another person. And you know, we could get psychological with this, and say, when you grow up in a home where you have very strong authority figures, a lot of times, that model is what you might look for or feel more comfortable in the later you get in life, or it could be the one that you rebel against. But I don’t know if that’s a good characterization. This idea that it’s allowing others to make decisions for you is the problem. We need to be more independent thinkers. 

Laurie Pasler  15:01

So you guys are staying on the right side of the quote, The Truth side. And I was thinking more about blind obedience, and how people on the other side that’s all. How do people fall in line? How do they get to be that way? Right? Steve, you’re saying, okay, they’re comfortable letting someone take the lead or and being a follower, if you will. That’s just a more comfortable place for them. But let’s talk about indoctrination into groups and things where people do go with the flow, and, you know, adhere to something called the applause theory, right? Applause, if somebody starts to applaud or stand up giving a standing ovation in a theater, then you do it too. Everybody does it. So I think there’s part of that mixed with it’s easier to not have to do your own fact checking, which is problematic in the world we live in today. And there are consequences that you face. Let’s face it. And that’s what Einstein is saying. It’s the greatest enemy to truth, of truth, sorry, truth meaning maybe, maybe truth is what’s morally right well, you know, I mean, on a very, on the very baseline right or wrong, you know,

Dan Fouts 16:31

Ethics. So in other words, what’s morally right or morally wrong is what he’s saying the truth is, is that what you’re getting at Lori?

Laurie Pasler  16:41

yeah, I think so. I mean, that’s the way I meant it, because blind obedience is a lack of responsibility, also to yourself and potentially to others. And if you can’t stop and check yourself and you just say, Okay, I’m going to do that, then you shouldn’t be surprised when some kind of harsh reality might occur as an example. 

Steve Fouts  17:18

That’s the dangerous dynamic there. I heard an essential question, Laurie, and I wrote it down when you were talking– how do people slip into a state of blind loyalty? What are the dynamics? That is a really good question, like I wrote it down, I put it in the chat so we can maybe come back. But that’s really, really, that’s really good.

Dan Fouts 17:50

Is it an emotional yearning and desire and void that people are filling when they’re blindly loyal to somebody or to something or to some leader or whatever? Yeah, where does that come from? That’s really good 

Steve Fouts  18:09

Or even abdication of responsibility, like we were saying before, it’s laziness. When you’re blindly following someone, you lose your accountability individually, and that is liberating. They feel like, since someone told them they’re ready to do it, they have more courage. Maybe you know. But anyway, Dan, go ahead.

Dan Fouts 18:32

So again, if that’s the enemy of the truth, then the truth would be making your own decisions, making your own ethical decisions under your own free will. That’s the truth. And the enemy of truth is blind obedience to somebody else, the abdication of your free will. So maybe that’s how I’m trying to put it together, both sides of it now.

Steve Fouts  18:59

Yeah, that’s good,

Lori Pasler  19:01

Exactly. So speaking of blind obedience, and I just kind of need to bring in Nazi Germany, because it’s such a huge part of my world and the education that we’re creating right now, all the major war criminals at Nuremberg use the same excuse in their defense of heinous crimes, just following orders. So to dovetail on what you said, Steve, the accountability factor, you know, they’re counting on not being held accountable and using that excuse of I’m just doing what I’m told blindly.

Steve Fouts  19:42

Yeah, it’s a lack of accountability.

Laurie Pasler  19:47

It’s a lack of accountability. And the chief prosecutor at the first Nuremberg trial, the International Military Tribunal, stated in his opening address that the trials are one of the most important tributes –  power is paid to reason, which underscores the idea that the law, rationality and morality stand above any individual or group power. So he was using the case that, hey, a baseline of what is right and wrong here, people, come on.

 Steve Fouts  20:23

Yeah, yeah, stipulating

Dan Fouts  20:29

The ethics of this is interesting, because for some authority makes something right, that because someone is in a position of authority and promulgating something that is what makes it right. Might makes right and so what I see beneath this quote now, Laurie, based on what you just said, is almost like an ethical tension between those who believe that if the authority says it, it’s right and you need to follow it blindly, and that morality lies inside the announcer of the rules, versus others who say that No, no, morality is not in the law giver. Morality is in the receiver, who has to critically think about whether or not it’s actually good or bad, not just because the person said it.

Steve Fouts  21:39

Can I add that morality is separate from authority, which is kind of what you were saying, that there is a good that’s separate from those in power. And if you forget that and start following people in power blindly, no accountability for yourself, the chances you’re going to be immoral or and do immoral acts just skyrocket because you are following someone else, and you’re not treating morality as something that you need to be thinking of as your own Guiding Light, and you need to understand what’s good and bad and be able to make those decisions on your own and discern, 

Laurie Pasler  22:32

Well, I think when he, when he interjects the work authority, it’s it’s hard not to think about anything except your government, your leaders, your country,

Steve Fouts  22:47

But we don’t have to. Are you thinking of some other type of authority, Laurie?

Lori Pasler  22:55

Well, let’s go back to Jim Jones for a second and his cult, you know, he indoctrinated people. So when you said there’s a tension between what someone’s telling you to do and what you may feel is right or wrong, then you know indoctrination plays on emotions, and that’s a big part of it too. So how do you get to people? How do you really break those walls down and get to the gooey center so that you can implant that concept of blind obedience, and you know, then it grows from there.

Dan Fouts 23:37

Are you saying– how do, how do people put others in a position of blindly following? 

Laurie Pasler  23:42

Well, isn’t it, doesn’t it all really go down to tribalism, you know, the good US versus the evil other. I mean, if you think about the world we’re living in today, and not getting into politics, but polarization in general, isn’t it all based on tribalism? You know, pitting one group against another and painting them as bad.

Steve Fouts  24:03

That’s definitely one. You know, a way to think about it, and I came up with this word fear, Lori, when I’m looking at your essential question here, how do you slip into a state of blind loyalty? I thought of the dynamic of fear. Jim Jones created a lot of fear for his followers that made it very difficult to leave. 

Lori Pasler  24:40

Well, to recount a quote about the Hitler Youth, which was a group for young boys and girls in Nazi Germany, toughness, blind obedience were drilled into us from the moment we could walk, and that’s the way that every little kid grew up, that’s how you act. This is just what you do. There isn’t any other. This is it. And I don’t know whether they felt fear or not. They just didn’t know anything else. I’m sure many of them felt it, but maybe they did have fear in terms of, well, I certainly can’t show that I’m not going to go along and I don’t believe it. 

Dan Fouts  25:33

Can we spin to the counterclaim? Why not? I’m gonna play with some words here, blind obedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth. Blind disobedience to authority is the greatest enemy of truth. People who discount someone or something or government. I’m a government teacher, so this is right on my mind right now  -who say the government said it, it must be a lie. It must not be true. It can’t be trusted, or so and so politicians said this, it must be untrue. So I think, in a weird way, it’s the disobedience to our authority figures that is also an enemy to truth and finding the right thing to do and the right decisions and the good things. Anyway, that’s how I would spin it. 

Laurie Pasler  26:49

Well, blind disobedience could mean, look, you have to stop at a red light. Okay? You have to stop at a stop sign. There are certain rules of society that you have to obey for a lot of reasons, safety, other people’s safety. Take the military as an example. I mean, I think that’s.  You have to do what you’re told to do in order to achieve the mission. Maybe you don’t really believe it or understand it, but, I mean, this is nothing that I know personally about, but that’s the example that I came up with. Well, if you don’t follow your orders in the military, you know you could jeopardize the lives of your fellow soldiers and colleagues,

Dan Fouts  27:42

That’s great. I mean, we just went through the 80th anniversary of D-Day. Imagine if the people who participated in D-Day did not have a sort of blind obedience to authority. We didn’t want critical thinkers, we wanted people who believed in this mission and of liberation of France and did not want to think of any other way that the world should be so, but that was in the service of good. It was to positive ends, you could argue.

 Steve Fouts  28:25

Military is a really good example.

Dan Fouts  28:29

Sometimes obedience to authority is not the enemy of truth. Blind obedience to authority is an ally to truth and doing the right thing. And I think the military examples are good with that. Back to the ethics. I think the truth is about the right or wrong, whatever it is you’re doing. So sometimes it’s an ally of truth to be obedient.

Steve Fouts  28:58

All right, I’m going to play. Oh, go ahead, Lori, 

Laurie Pasler  29:01

I came up with a couple other counterclaims from your library of quotes that I’ve been studying, “Never do it. And this is another Einstein quote, “never do anything against conscience, even if the state demands it.” 

Steve Fouts  29:17

That goes really well with this. 

Laurie Pasler  29:22

And from Benjamin Franklin, “It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority.” 

Steve Fouts  29:29

That’s really good. Those are very, very similar. 

Laurie Pasler  29:39

Well, you had some really good material for me to pull from. 

Steve Fouts  29:41

There’s good stuff, right? 

Laurie Pasler  29:45

Good stuff. 

Dan Fouts  29:49

Any other angles– I’m thinking of a family, parents– obedience to parents. Do this because I said so.  At a certain age, you know, with kids, there’s a need for a certain blind obedience. And then your kids, of course, start questioning, and then all hell breaks loose. 

Laurie Pasler  30:16

Your bedtime is 830 get in there, right?

Dan Fouts  30:21

There’s no debate here.  There’s no debate.  Just do it.

Steve Fouts  30:27

I got it. I got another angle. It’s going to be religious, and I’m going to change the greatest enemy to the truth, to reveals the truth. So here’s my new quote, blind obedience to authority reveals the truth. I’m going to take blind obedience and understand that as faith, blind meaning you can’t see the physical. You don’t have evidence. You’re blind. You can’t see anything, but you have a mind’s eye, and having that conviction that you believe in the authority, we’ll call it God will reveal a truth to you that cannot be seen or appreciated by someone who’s a critical thinker and needs to see things and examine them on their own. There’s part of the human experience that relies on a longing after something or for something that you don’t experience with your senses.

Dan Fouts 31:55

Maybe what you’re saying is it doesn’t need certainty. Is that one way of saying it?

Steve Fouts  32:03

Obedience doesn’t need critical thinking. It’s okay if it’s just a leap of faith. Leap of Faith, right? And you give your power to God, or you know, something else in your life, and you’re just like an actor playing a role in a play. There’s another producer, Laurie, you’ll appreciate that one, and it’s okay. You don’t have to produce your own existence. You don’t always have to be critically thinking for yourself. It’s okay to just find your role.

Dan Fouts  32:48

Right and then what you have to think is, if the authority that you’re blindly obedient to through faith is an authority that’s preaching peace and forgiveness and love and good values, well, then there’s not a lot of risk in doing that. That’s a good thing, but if the authority is doing terrible things to humanity, then you have a different ball game. So yeah, it depends on what the ends are.

Steve Fouts  33:17

We don’t have an adjective next to authority. That’s what makes it scary.

Lauire Pasler  33:23

Well, do you think that some people in cults, for example, feel that blind obedience is the same thing as a leap of faith?

Steve Fouts  33:31

Absolutely,

Dan Fouts  33:35

Definitely. 

Steve Fouts  33:38

I think that’s part of what endears them to it. The cult is able to take that part of human nature that hopefully is in a church and is more positive and it just takes it and uses it for another agenda.

Dan Fouts  33:59

Jim Jones. It was called the People’s temple, if I remember this right.

Steve Fouts  34:04

He was a very popular preacher, you know. And I’m sure that he wasn’t terrible his entire life, you know, he went through periods where he was, I mean, he’s very charismatic, and people looked up to him, and he had a very integrated congregation. He was seen as a progressive, you know, African Americans and, yeah, so anyway, I went the religious route for the counterclaim.  I think what makes this quote so challenging is that there really are two big ideas in it, blind obedience and the greatest enemy of truth. You know, whenever you have two really big ideas that really deserve their own  conversation, it makes it challenging. But I think we’re doing well.

Dan Fouts  35:09

It makes it more interesting when you have two bookends.

Steve Fouts  35:18

Well, what about another essential question? How do people slip into a state of blind loyalty? That’s what I wrote down.

Dan Fouts  35:29

How do I know when to blindly follow authority?  When should I follow authority?

Steve Fouts  35:43

Yeah, just leave out blindly. Just say, How do I know when I should follow authority?

Dan Fouts 35:48

Or add blindly? If we use the word blindly, and we’re kicking it around, I mean, are there situations when that’s acceptable? The answer could be, no. I mean, the answer could be, you know,

Laurie Pasler  36:03

How do I know if what I’m looking at is propaganda or the truth?  Because sometimes what’s complex about that question, which I really love that question Lori, is that sometimes if the authority I’m interacting with is being in a way that I am embracing, that I actually agree with, that I want to be like, then I am being true to myself, and that’s a hard one. That’s because if I don’t have the confidence on a certain issue, I will follow the authority of an expert, for instance, and I’m okay with that. I’m being true to myself by saying I’m kind of ignorant on this issue. This guy’s got this one, and I’m okay with that. And that changes with different people, the different groups that you’re with. You know, if you trust your doctor and he tells you to do something, you’re going to do it if you know. I mean, many people do in any case, most. Take this medicine, and you’ll feel better because you’ve taken medicine and you’ve gotten better in the past.

Steve Fouts  37:26

Put on this mask. It’ll prevent covid. A lot of people went against that one. Well, just, personally, I was just thinking, give me the mask. Like, I don’t know what’s going on here. I don’t have any opinion. Give me the mask. It can’t hurt. That was my response.

Dan Fouts  38:00

Well, this is good. We’ve ended with some interesting questions. See what happens, Laurie, with these conversations. When you have to resolve these differences, you have these inquiries that you have to think about and be like, Okay, well, what is my position on this? I don’t think I’ve ever thought about obedience to authority in the same way. Now, after this conversation, I’m thinking about it in different ways. And so these questions are coming up,

Steve Fouts  38:32

Yeah, what were you saying?

Lauire Pasler  38:36

I would agree with you. There are all these dimensional avenues for things you do in your life.

Dan Fouts  38:48

This is something that is very applicable to everyone.

Steve Fouts  38:54

And Laurie, your work with courtroom 600 obviously you’re getting confronted with these issues, much more than many, and you’re seeing, you know, kind of the fallout of a situation where there was a lot of allegiance to authority for a long time, and some terrible things happened because of it, and in a court of law the Nuremberg trials, we got people to almost wake up again and realize that they’re actually individuals who made choices and did some terrible things, and just to hear how they excuse themselves and the lack of accountability that they argue for which created this need to define this morality outside of authority figures and to hold them accountable for their actions. It was like a reminder that the trials are a reminder that we can get so enthralled in authority, boy, look where it brings us, and we forget that we’re actually accountable human beings.

Laurie Pasler  40:23

Well, racial ideology that’s very, very relevant today, and that was what the name of the game was. Hitler’s racial ideology led him down the path to war, and everybody followed. My education partner, Dave Fript often says that propaganda only works on people who already believe. And he taught this class at a private Chicago School for 35 years about the Nuremberg trials. And when I first met him, I said, well, what is it that you want students to take away from these lessons, you know, from learning about Nuremberg. And he said, I want people, I want students to learn that good people did very bad things, all the while thinking they were doing good. Now, that’s a lot to get your arms around, but that’s the way that it was. How could they have done those things unless they thought that the means justified the ends, and so that’s where blind obedience took them.

Dan Fouts  41:41

And I like the positive spin on human nature in that statement, Laurie, that there are good people who did these things, that humanity is not bad, but can be made bad under certain conditions. And that’s what’s terrifying. It’s just absolutely terrifying, but we have to be reminded of it. 

Lauire Pasler  42:09

And that’s why it’s important to learn about these things so that you can recognize the warning signs. Nuremberg is really like, like a cautionary tale.

Dan Fouts  42:24

Well, this has been really great. Laurie, we appreciate your presence here on our podcast, and talking about a really important issue of authority and truth and ethics. I mean, this has a little bit of everything, and it’s about such important issues of today, and your work with Courtroom 600 is just fantastic. You’re doing a great service to humanity, and we really appreciate that, and appreciate you coming on to speak with us and sharing the joy of conversations with us. So thank you very much.

Lauire Pasler  43:07

Thank you so much for having me, both of you. It was really delightful to talk about these things. I know I have so much more to think about after I reach out tonight,

Dan Fouts  43:17

And that’s hopefully what conversations do. They’re a beginning, not an end. Thank you, everybody, and we will see you in the next Teach Different podcast.