“Never ever be afraid to make some noise and get in good trouble, necessary trouble.” – Teach Different with John Lewis

Transcript

Dan (00:00)

Welcome to the Teach Different podcast. Steve and Dan Fouts here to mull over a quote by John Lewis, famous civil rights activist, represented a district in Georgia for 33 years, part of the Freedom just a very prominent figure within American history really in the 20th century. Here’s his quote.Never ever be afraid to make some noise and get in good trouble, necessary trouble. Never ever be afraid to make some noise and get in good trouble, necessary trouble. We’re gonna work the Teach Different Method on this quote and see what we can come up with. So Steve, what’s your interpretation of this? How would you put this in your own words?

 

Steve (01:07)

If you’re in a bad system or you’re in a place that isn’t just and treating people well, and you’re silent, you’re complicit, you’re buying into the bad system, you’re making things worse. But if you make noise and you work to change something that should be changed, that’s going to, number one, take courage and then you’re going to get in trouble. You’re going to… People are not going to like what you’re doing and you’re going to put yourself at risk because the system is not the way you want it. You’re trying to change something. So that’s what this says to me.

 

Dan (02:00)

Yeah, never be afraid. So definitely the whole courage is in there. Never be afraid to make some noise, noise and get in good trouble. So yeah, the word trouble suggests that what you’re doing is going against at the bare minimum, a status quo and then could be a law that is imposed on society. And then the end, necessary trouble, which makes you think that he’s saying that certain kinds of trouble you should get in. Okay, so this really flies in the face of what most people would think, which is follow the rules, obey authority. This is saying don’t obey authority.

 

Steve (02:31)

It’s a– that’s actually the counterclaim. You should always be afraid. If you’re getting in trouble, it’s not a good sign. You should be checking yourself and protecting yourself. That’s the counterclaim.

 

Dan (03:01)

Yeah, right, right. And this is saying you should get into trouble. should, the trouble is necessary if you feel wronged, if you feel wronged, certain kinds of trouble is necessary for advancement. Yeah, right.

 

Steve (03:10)

You shouldn’t be afraid of that. There’s other types of trouble that are not good, you know, for anyone. And I think he would probably acknowledge that. I think he’s alluding to obviously the struggles of the civil rights movement and, you know, from a marginalized population perspective. That’s what he’s talking about here, but I’m reading into it. He’s not saying all types of trouble are good. And he’s just saying there’re certain types that you shouldn’t be afraid of because they’re necessary. They’re almost inevitable. They’re good. It’s good that you’re in trouble. You’re making an impact. Because systems will not change unless people break them and movements, you know, reframe them.

 

Dan (03:57)

They’re good. It’s good.

 

Steve (04:18)

So this is a, I mean, I don’t know if you could call it revolutionary. is somewhat revolutionary. I’ve got an immediate application to this from the events, current events, you know, with this, violence that we just saw last week and how, you know, the person that lost their life was speaking out and was very open and challenging of other people’s opinions.

 

Dan (04:19)

So, yeah.

 

Steve (04:48)

And not everyone agreed. Yeah, Charlie Kirk. Not everybody agreed, obviously, with Charlie Kirk and he rubbed people wrong. But, you know, he was expressing a voice. He was expressing a freedom. He was creating a bit of trouble in other people’s minds that weren’t ready to hear what he had to say. He didn’t create, you know, physical trouble. He didn’t threaten people.

 

Dan (04:48)

You’re referring to Kirk? You’re referring to Kirk? 

 

Steve (05:15)

But sometimes the words really get at people and if people perceive it as trouble, maybe it is. But the point being,

 

Dan (05:24)

That’s good. Are you saying that that’s good trouble? According to this claim, you know, trying to Yeah, trying to, yeah, is trying to engage people in debate. That seems to me to be the kind of trouble that is safe in a democracy usually.

 

Steve (05:30)

I would love to have listeners weigh in. You know, is it? It’s a good – yeah.

 

Dan (05:48)

That if, yeah, you can say things, you can have the courage, never be afraid to speak your mind. You might get yourself in trouble by what you say because other people will look at you and go, I disagree with you. But that’s probably, I don’t know. Yeah, that’s, no.

 

Steve (06:05)

It’s not physical harm. It’s mental stimulation, mental challenge. Now, I’m gonna give a counterclaim to that though. And that’s this. There’s a way of talking where you really can demean people and be a bully and say things, whatever you wanna call it, all the racists.

 

Dan (06:13)

Yes.

 

Steve (06:31)

Like whatever words people use that are negative in connotation of the way people talk, can, although it doesn’t create physical harm, it can create, you know, obviously a reaction.

 

Dan (06:46)

Emotional harm can create a reaction or emotional harm.

 

Steve (06:52)

Yeah, that’s real. That’s real. They say sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I think that has a counterclaim. know, sometimes words are the worst and that we can get over our physical challenges. It’s just when people like make us, belittle us, make us feel less than, and just when you just feel targeted.

 

Dan (07:07)

Yeah.

 

Steve (07:22)

That is a really, really scary feeling. It also creates a lot of animosity and anger. But again, back to the quote, the question, maybe the essential question is what type of trouble is worth it? Or what’s the criteria for what is worth speaking out for?

 

Dan (07:32)

Yeah, right, right. Yeah.

 

Steve (07:49)

And maybe like risking your life for it or all just as a free speech in general or is it something that you need?

 

Dan (07:54)

Yeah. What is good trouble? What is necessary trouble? There’s your essential question, because that’s going to change depending on the person. To a civil rights activist, good trouble is going to mean one thing. But to a conservative activist, let’s say a pro-life group, good trouble is going to look something different. So what are the, and then another question, what are the boundaries of action that should constrain us in acting on anything, whether we call it good trouble or not? I mean, we have to be under boundaries of action. I’m thinking of the Supreme Court, you know, I teach government, this is exactly what the Supreme Court has to deal with, with very controversial groups. I’m going to use John Lewis’s language, getting in good trouble, know, doing things that they believe are worthwhile and important for their cause. And then they have to set boundaries for that. And that’s difficult to do.

 

Steve (09:04)

The boundaries are, because you’re within a system. And the other layer to this is perceiving that someone is creating trouble is reality enough, regardless of the motivations or intentions of the person saying it. So that adds a layer. We’re not totally in control of how people react to us, which makes it even more dangerous, you know, to speak out, because you know maybe even half the people are gonna take you a certain way. And that’s what becomes your demise if someone gets mad enough at you or enough people get mad at you and then they try to stop what you’re doing.

 

Dan (09:37)

Exactly. Sure, sure. And this is one of the, I want to say, costs of living in a democracy that promotes freedom of speech and expression. It not only supports expression that lands and creates peace, but it also protects, our constitution also protects speech that riles certain people up. Freedom has to be a broad swath of activities. Otherwise, our system doesn’t function the way it should function. I mean, this is, you know, to your point, I’m going to the, we spend a little time on the, the counterclaim. The counterclaim is don’t speak up as much. Be afraid that what you say is going to cause trouble and choose restraint and silence over trouble.

 

Steve (10:51)

Trust, you could even argue. Trust. Don’t make trouble. You don’t go along.

 

Dan (10:59)

Trust the people making decisions or trust the leaders.

 

Steve (11:01)

Yeah. Yeah. Like if your teacher is telling you to sit down and you want to create trouble because you don’t want to sit down, you could just say, look, they’re wanting me to learn and everybody else to learn. That’s why they’re doing this. I’m not going to think about it personally. I’m just going to do what they’re going to say. You know, good decision. But if you don’t trust authority, and I’m sorry, that’s what’s breaking down.

 

Dan (11:24)

Yeah, trust the person in authority. Trust the person in authority.

 

Steve (11:32)

in society. That’s the challenge. If you’re not trusting authority, then you’re left to your own

 

Trouble. Because you’re gonna be thinking the worst of people and no one’s there to have your back. And if you don’t trust the system. So this is what’s difficult right now for us. We’re all thinking that we’re threatened and everyone’s angry, left, right. But the trouble that each is causing for the other is perceived in certain ways and it’s very tough to get at what this is, but you have to understand it.

 

Dan (12:18)

Never ever be afraid to make some noise and get in good trouble, necessary trouble. A word came out of this now that I’ve read it again, related to the claim. And that is another way to say the claim maybe, is conflict is good?

 

Steve (12:37)

Sometimes.

 

Dan (12:39)

Right. Conflict can be good is the claim here. so a question, you know, because conflict comes when you are making good trouble and challenging authority and doing things that you believe are just that are going against unjust laws or whatever. And it really begs the question, how can we as a society use conflict?

 

Steve (12:51)

Mm-hmm.

 

Dan (13:08)

for reconciliation and peace. How can we have conflict and also have peace and reconciliation and understanding at the same time?

 

Steve (13:18)

That’s where I think the conflict has to be a conversation.

 

Dan (13:23)

Well, you’re right.

 

Steve (13:23)

You need to set up ways where you talk and you’re able to listen to other people, but it can’t be disingenuous. It’s got to be authentic where you need to go there in the right spirit. You can talk and debate for three hours and not be any better afterwards. You just won or thought you won. A conversation is not a debate though. You know, this is where you spill your guts and people give their own logic and you listen to it. And it’s someone you don’t agree with, but at least you understand them better. Like why they think the things they think.

 

Dan (13:59)

Right. It’s the method. It’s the claim and the counterclaim. It’s storytelling. It’s kind of what we’re trying to do at Teach Different is to hold the lid on disagreements and conflict. I mean, I know we’re spinning off this quote to talk about Teach Different, but there’s connections here. There really are connections.

 

Steve (14:08)

Yeah. There you go. There are. It’s a good quote. It’s a good quote. It’s got me motivated for the week.

 

Dan (14:26)

Yeah, John Lewis, never ever be afraid to make some noise and get in good trouble, necessary trouble. Take care of everybody out there. The news has been difficult recently and we just need to stay positive and know that we have so much more in common than we have different from each other. And we just have to keep talking to each other in ways that uplift our spirit and hearts. We can do it.

 

Steve (14:58)

Call it a fake war. There is no war. There is always peace that can be chosen and understanding period. We are not, we are in control.

 

Dan (15:11)

Yep. All right. Take care, everybody.

 

Steve (15:13)

Alright.