“Good leaders must first become good servants.” Robert Greenleaf – Leadership

Transcript

Dan Fouts  00:00

Hello, Steve and Dan Fouts here from Teach Different. We’re veteran teachers from the United States bringing educators together from around the world to learn a simple conversation method, which we model on this podcast for you. If you’re a teacher, administrator, or parent who wants to use the power of conversations to build stronger relationships and fight polarization, stay tuned to hear the impact our method can have on your discussions. Then join our Community of Educators at teachdifferent.com for additional resources and to participate in lively conversations among teachers and faculty, free for 30 days.

Welcome, everybody to the Teach Different podcast this week. We are excited to have a high school principal, David Geurin, from Missouri with us today. He will introduce himself once he weighs in on our quote of the week. Here is the Teach Different protocol that we use for these conversations. We will share the quote, then interpret the claim of the quote in our own words. We may discuss key words in the quote that need to be unpacked. After about ten to fifteen minutes, we will start pushing against the quote with a counterclaim. This is where critical thinking begins. We want to agree with what Greenleaf said, but then we have to think of another way of looking at the world that’s equally reasonable. That critical thinking piece is so important for students and adults. We’ll end with an essential question to keep us thinking about this conversation and to move forward. 

During this process, Dave will share the great work that he’s doing in the educational community. So, with that introduction, here we go. Robert Greenleaf said, “good leaders must first become good servants.” “Good leaders must first become good servants.” Dave, welcome to the show. Will you comment on this quote, and share why it inspired you, because you picked it.

David Geurin  02:15 – Claim

I think this is an important concept for leaders. I mentioned to you that my dissertation was related to servant leadership, so I know a little about Robert Greenleaf’s background and how he came to this idea that effective leadership had a lot to do with being a servant leader. He coined the term, servant leadership. He read a book about a mystical journey taken by these people in a caravan. There was a hired hand along to help. While this person was solving problems and serving others, he became the leader through his desire to serve. I think Robert Greenleaf worked for IBM, if I remember correctly, but he had no idea… 

Dan Fouts  03:27

It might have been AT&T. I think it was AT&T, but I can’t remember.

David Geurin  03:31

He was in the corporate world, but he noticed that effective leaders were great at serving their people. I think that’s become even more real to me, since I wrote my dissertation. Leadership is influence. That’s how I would define it. We gain influence by helping others and by how we add value to them. Servants serving others, add value to others. I think the term servant turns people off. They think they will be a doormat and just wait on others. I don’t think that was his intention at all. We take care of the people we lead through acts of service.

Dan Fouts  04:31

Will you share your background and where you’re coming from?

David Geurin  04:40

I’m a high school principal in Missouri. This is my 14th year at this high school. We have about 800 students in grades nine through 12. We have a great community with a lot of support from the town. We’re a small world town environment. We are a National Blue Ribbon School and we offer a lot of really great programs for a school our size. I feel blessed to be a part of such a great team.

Steve Fouts  05:19

That’s great. I think you got the claim, good leaders serve others. Let me ask a question to the group. Does this apply to all leaders, the need to have that servant quality, or are there some leaders who benefit more from having that quality? It’s just a thought that occurred to me, because you mentioned influence, David. I think influence is a perfect word. Influence looks different in various contexts. I’m just putting that question out there, for anyone who has a thought about it.

David Geurin  06:09

I think some leaders are more like managers. They operate transactionally.  They may be very organized, and communicate well. This is the expectation of leaders. They provide reward and punishment scenarios. It’s very transactional. I think servant leadership is a transformational type of leadership. It’s based more on how you’re relating to the people in your organization. It’s relationship focused, not just organizational focus. You feel like you matter, that the leader cares about you, and wants to see you do well. A servant leader doesn’t want to see you accomplish what they need you to do, they’re interested in the goals of the people that they are leading, whether it’s students or teachers. I want to help them reach their goals, build their capacity, and be stronger as a result. I want them to become leaders themselves, to grow their leadership and influence through the way that I lead. I think that happens through servant leadership and the building of relationships. 

Dan Fouts  07:48

That’s really good, and makes a lot of sense. I’m thinking, David, of bringing this to students. We like to share these quotes in classrooms with students of all ages. I think it would be really interesting to share this quote with students and ask them, what do they think the qualities of a good leader are? What do they look for from a leader? When do they feel supported by a leader? Help the kids think through a time when they felt empowered by the person who was leading them. That way, they might be able to connect better with this quote. They could talk about their coaches, or teachers and how they’re treated in a classroom. I think that would be a visceral way students could appreciate the claim that Greenleaf is making.

David Geurin  08:51

We ask these questions in several of our programs here. We make an effort to teach leadership and character development with our students.  I think if you just showed students this quote, or asked them to talk about leadership, their first thought is that it’s being in charge. It’s giving directives. It’s a power dynamic, instead of what you just mentioned, an empowering dynamic where a leader is helping people grow and become stronger. Being led is not about being efficient and subordinate, but about taking initiative to create because of leadership. I think an interesting activity would be for students to think about who the best leaders have been in their lives. Teachers and coaches would be great examples. I think if they looked at the qualities of those individuals, they would come up with a good definition of leadership. It probably wouldn’t have a whole lot to do with being told what to do, but that’s probably part of it. What we hear when we ask this question, is that when they identify a teacher who has been a powerful person in their life, it’s almost always related to that person believing in them. The teacher believed in them and saw more in them than they themselves thought they were capable of. They felt like the teacher cared, and got to know them as a person. They cleared barriers for them, and gave them opportunities. This is what we hear from students. This is the kind of person I want to have in the classroom, or on the field, or in any aspect of leadership.

Steve Fouts  10:58

Definitely. I’m thinking of another quote, David, that we have in our library by Lau Tzu, a Chinese philosopher. “To lead people, walk behind them.” It has the same spirit. It’s kind of a misnomer, because a leader is supposed to be in charge and out front. I guess that’s the way many people think of a leader. But, when you dig down and ask students who they look up to and why, you’re going to find some of what you shared as reasons. It’s not going to be that they need someone in charge in their life. 

Dan Fouts  11:43

That makes me think of the classroom experience. Dave, I’m about 29 years into teaching social studies in the Chicagoland area. I have found that some of our best classes are when the teacher is sitting somewhere in the class, while the entire class is working. The teacher doesn’t seem like they are the leader of the room. The teacher has empowered the students to do something. I think that is similar, and related, to what you were talking about.

David Geurin  12:29

Absolutely. I definitely think that in a high functioning learning environment, the teacher can be that type of leader. Until you get to that point as a teacher, you may be more directive, or teacher led. The idea is to give over more control of the learning process, because that’s what we want. We want students to be independent learners, and to operate without every step being directed to them. I love seeing classrooms where students are taking greater ownership and leadership. In fact, we have a couple of programs here where the kids lead the whole program. They’re under the direct guidance of a teacher, but they’re in charge. They’re running the show. It’s really powerful to see that. I would like to see more of that in our core subjects, because I think it’s so powerful. It’s great that you’ve seen that in your classes teaching social studies. Students having these conversations and the thinking that happens with ethics is really awesome.

Dan Fouts  14:01

Just a couple of weeks ago, I had a student lead a conversation. They picked their own original quote. It was so good. It was on honesty. She had the entire class involved, but doing it with her, and I was just watching. I’m sure you’ll appreciate this, David, that it seems like the teacher isn’t in charge, but really the teacher is in charge in a different way. They invested in helping other human beings become who they are and become confident, and now they’re there to watch. There is an investment and a control, but it’s so…

Steve Fouts  14:48

It’s influence. 

Dan Fouts  14:50

Yeah, it’s the influence. 

Steve Fouts  14:52

That’s what influence looks like when the kids are running a classroom. The teacher is not acting there, but anybody can see that the influence is everywhere. That’s what’s so powerful about it. It’s impressive.

David Geurin  15:11

It’s not accidental. It’s very much by design. There is a great deal of design that goes into that type of leadership, to make that happen. It is that influence of the teacher and work that’s going on behind the scenes to serve the kids, help them acquire the skills they need, and the capacity they need to be successful in that type of a learning environment.

Steve Fouts  15:43

Exactly.

David Geurin  15:44

Transformational versus a transactional classroom. In a transactional classroom, I’m working for grey…

Steve Fouts  15:51

…and there’s a power dynamic. 

David Geurin  15:55

Yeah. In the transformational classroom, the kids are taking greater ownership of their learning, and the learning becomes the goal. Instead of you’re the teacher, and I’m the learner. The “I have to please you” kind of thing that can happen in classrooms.

Steve Fouts  16:16

More democratic. There are a lot of words that we could use. Well, I think we’ve done well with the claim, and we’re probably preaching to the choir a little bit. David, this is where we make a turn. It’s time to step back, look at the concept of leadership, and acknowledge that individuals need different things. Perhaps they need different types of influences at different points in their life, which might paint a different picture of a leader for them. What’s a counterclaim to this? What’s another way to look at leadership that you would say is equally valid, and maybe even more appropriate for certain people? Feel free to define your own context.

David Geurin  17:16 – Counterclaim

I think there are times when servant leadership can be criticized, because people think it’s soft or weak. I don’t think that’s the way it should be, but that is a criticism if it’s not done correctly. I’m not going to confront or address things that are problems, because I just want to serve my people. I want to make sure they’re happy. I think those are criticisms. I also think there are times when other styles of leadership are needed, like in a crisis, or when you’re moving towards being a servant leader. First, you have to have some measure of order and structure in the situation, before relinquishing some of that to support kids or adults, whoever it is that you’re working with, become empowered. I think another criticism of servant leadership is that it’s fuzzy, it’s an everything goes kind of leadership. That wouldn’t be a healthy environment either.

Steve Fouts  19:00

I like the way you put that. That’s where I was headed. I didn’t want to use the word weak, but it might come off as weak. Some people want a leader who’s self assured, confident, who can crack the whip periodically, and create, dare I say, a little bit of fear in the room. That is what emboldens some people, in some contexts.  If your teacher or coach is this happy, go lucky person who is trying to push other people out in front, there might be a lack of inspiration. Maybe that’s a personal thing or a contextual thing, but I agree with a lot of the things you said.

David Geurin  20:12

I do think there are personality characteristics that play a part in that. Some people have a need for a leader who is more charismatic, or more direct. I think, even within servant leadership, we can meet some of those needs by recognizing the context and what’s needed at the time. You’re going to try to meet the needs of individual learners, but sometimes you have to meet the needs of what your followers need, and what may be best for them. Servant Leadership may mean being tougher on this one thing, like we have to get attention and go in this direction, but I don’t think that’s always how it’s perceived. That would be something to think about with the counterclaim. Are we doing that? How are we defining it? 

Dan Fouts  21:23

Yeah, that’s great. I think you’re right. It’s a timing thing. It’s like anything else in teaching and leading. Leading a school as a principle is not a one size fits all. You have to pick the right strategy at the right time. One thing that I’m struggling with, in a very motivating kind of way, now that we’re hopefully coming out of the pandemic, is the student’s work ethic. The students spent the last year and a half at home, not having the same kind of work ethic that they used to. I’ve been really patient with the work ethic and dealing with a lot of the emotional and intellectual issues they have. I’m trying to figure out as a leader how I can toughen up a little bit. I think it’s needed. We’re getting to a point where we might need to tighten the screws a little bit for their benefit. I’m struggling with trying to find the right approach.

David Geurin  22:37

Yeah, I think a lot of people are struggling, because it feels hard to tighten up for some reason. It feels like that’s what we need. Hey guys, we have to push through some things that are hard sometimes. But, it also seems like there’s so much other stuff going on. I’m not sure I can put my finger on what has caused this current dynamic. It feels difficult to get the response that we want. It’s hard on teachers right now, too. I think everybody’s trying to feel their way back after what we’ve been through. Like you said, the difference the last year has had on the students’ habits and things. We’re just trying to regroup right now. That’s the leadership challenge that everybody’s trying to figure out right now. I think the fundamentals are still there, as far as what leaders need to do. That’s painting a picture of where we need to be and helping people know what they need to do to get there and how to reach that goal. Sometimes we have to not only praise, but push. Push and praise. Some of both. That’s an important aspect of leadership.

Steve Fouts  24:13

I appreciate what you said, David, about being tough on your followers or your students. You have to be careful if you think a servant leader can’t be tough, because there is a motivational, inspirational, internal reality in a leader that you can’t always see. It has to be there in order to be a servant leader. If you’re an effective leader, you’re able to pick out strategies whenever you need them. You’re able to be tough, and then console a student who is upset. Although you’re a tough person, you’re also a caring person. Sometimes that dynamic is so powerful. When you’re a servant leader all the time, you’re always nice, and you don’t get that dynamic. You made me think of how important the internal motivations are. 

David Geurin  25:27

A person who stands out in my mind, who I think a lot of people are probably familiar with, is Tony Dungy. He’s fairly soft spoken and mild mannered, but was a very successful football coach in the NFL. When you hear his stories there was very high accountability, very high care, a lot of servant leadership. His athletes were not only accountable to him, but they were accountable to each other. I think that’s something that leaders do. They help create the conditions where greater accountability can flourish. It’s not just accountability to me, you’re not doing this just for me, but this is commitment to our mission and to each other. Commitment to the team. Interdependence is fostered. We want to do this for each other, and help each other succeed.

Dan Fouts  26:43 – Essential Question

That is really good. Tony Dungy is a good example of someone who has a calm demeanor. There’s a lot of work that went behind his teams that led to respect and accountability. That’s great. Well, this has been really good. David, we like to end with an essential question that wraps up the conversation. Teachers like to use these as exit slips or for something to think about. What does it take to be a good leader? This could be a question that you think about after this general conversation that encapsulates a lot of the things that we talked about today. David, please share how people can get in touch with you to learn about some of the work that you’ve been doing.

David Geurin  27:44

Yeah, absolutely. I’m most present on Twitter, @DavidGeurin. I enjoy interacting and connecting with educators on that platform. That community has been helpful to me over the last 10 years or so that I’ve been using it. I think it’s great for educators to participate in that community, because you can learn so much from people you wouldn’t normally interact with. Dan, I came to know your work through Twitter.  I also have a blog, www.DavidGeurin.com. During the pandemic I didn’t blog as regularly as I did prior to that. My book, “Future Driven: Will Your Students Thrive in An Unpredictable World? That seems more relevant than ever, given the fact that our world feels less predictable, more complex, and more uncertain than ever before. How can we help prepare students? The critical thinking skills that we’re talking about and developing leadership skills are certainly an important part. I truly believe that everybody has influence, and the ability to be a leader. It’s just a matter of growing that leadership. To what extent are you going to be a leader? Are you going to be a leader in a positive way, or a leader who isn’t helpful to your community or to others? 

Dan Fouts  29:28

You can lead in the opposite direction, unfortunately. Well, thank you so much for your insight and wisdom and for the things you’re doing both in your school and the wider education community. It’s been good connecting with you on Twitter. Keep up the great work, David.

David Geurin  29:50

Yeah, thank you for the conversation. I really enjoyed it. It was interesting. Breaking down the quote was a lot of fun and the interaction with you guys was fantastic. Good to connect tonight.

Steve Fouts  30:01

Likewise. It was really nice to meet you.

David Geurin  30:04

Yeah. Nice to meet you too.

Dan Fouts  30:07

Thanks, everybody. We hope you’re walking away feeling energized by some great ideas, and have a sense of confidence that you too can master the art and science of conversations to make a lasting impact. We at Teach Different are dedicated to supporting you along that journey. Please visit teachdifferent.com to join our Community of Educators for additional resources and engaging discussion among fellow teachers and administrators, free for 30 days. We’ll see you there and next time on the Teach Different Podcast, take care!