“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.” Plato – Honesty

Transcript

Dan Fouts  00:00

Hello, Steve and Dan Fouts here from Teach Different. We’re veteran teachers from the United States bringing educators together from around the world to learn a simple conversation method, which we model on this podcast for you. If you’re a teacher, administrator, or parent who wants to use the power of conversations to build stronger relationships and fight polarization, stay tuned to hear the impact our method can have on your discussions. Then join our Community of Educators at teachdifferent.com for additional resources and to participate in lively conversations among teachers and faculty, free for 30 days.

Well, good evening, everybody. Welcome to the Teach Different conversation podcast. Tonight, we have an intriguing quote about honesty and an interesting guest, David Olson. David is the Director of Education at the Retro Report. He will introduce himself when he speaks about the quote in a minute. For those new to Teach Different, let’s briefly go over our 3-Step conversation method. We start with a provocative quote, then talk about what the quote means in our own language. After we’ve had a good talk about our interpretation of the quote, then we’re going to look at a counterclaim to the quote. This is a different way of looking at the world, but is equally valuable. When you share the counterclaim with students, it’s really important for the students to believe in it. Even if they agree with the quote, they have to convince themselves otherwise. They can’t just say it, and not believe it, because here’s where the critical thinking piece comes in. This is when they learn to see the world from different perspectives. We’ll end with an essential question and go on our way.  

Here we go. I’m going to share the quote twice, and then Dave is going to offer his interpretation of the claim of the quote. “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.” “No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.” David, welcome to the show. 

David Olson  02:14 – Claim

Thank you very much for having me, Dan and Steve, and to all of the wonderful listeners out there in podcast land. I think Plato might be on to something here. “No one is hated more than he who speaks the truth.” I think this speaks to the duality that we all have. We all want to be liked and appreciated, and to think we’re the best at something. At the same time, we claim to want the truth, to want constructive criticism. There are so many people who claim being blunt as a virtue, but we know that oftentimes that bluntness is a cover for being a jerk. The contemporary parlance for this comes from the great Lizzo, the truth hurts. Plato definitely has a kernel of wisdom here, although I know we’re going to dissect this quote. I think there’s some truth on both sides.  I am the Director of Education at Retro Reports. Prior to this job, I spent more than a decade as a high school social studies, history, government, and criminal justice teacher. Now, I take Retro Report’s great work and create these awesome short form documentaries for teachers to use in the classroom.  People who like to dive into really good questions and figure out good arguments on multiple sides will enjoy what they find when they check out Retro Report’s films. They’re really good at diving deep and finding interesting questions. I’d love to talk more about how Teach Different fits into the classroom.

Dan Fouts  04:34

I have to say real quick, that I saw the Retro Report video on Afghanistan. It was fantastic. I used it in all my classes and spread the word. These are incredible resources.

David Olson  04:47

Wonderful. Everything Retro Report does is totally free and open to teachers. It’s geared for middle school, high school, and college level. We create a wide range of resources like videos, lesson plans, student activities, and webinars.

Steve Fouts  05:13

Nice. I like your take on the quote. It’s very straightforward. I like how you put it. We pride ourselves on being open to constructive criticism, and wanting people to be truthful with us. Who likes being lied to, right?  But, when you’re around a lot of people who aren’t telling you the truth, maybe about a problem you have, or something they don’t like about you, then you get a lot of people who just want you to like them. They’re going to be soft with you. Then, when you run into someone who tells it like it is, they seem like the devil, almost like they’re attacking you. I think that’s the dynamic that creates the truth of this quote. I don’t know if that made sense.

David Olson  06:21

Yeah. One of the questions you guys often ask your guests is, where might this fit in the classroom? Where does this connect to what you teach? I’m a self professed government nerd. I love teaching about the U.S. government and politics. Those two things mesh together, but are definitely different at times. I think about how we assess politicians. How do we assess political campaigns? How do we assess what the government actually does? When we think about programs the government creates are we honest about what the goals are, and whether or not we’ve met those goals? Are there people out there who were willing to change their mind and choose to do something different in the public policy sphere?  Do they say, this is what my party believes, and stick with that, regardless of what the truth might actually be about whether or not that policy was successful. I see this so clearly in history and civics classrooms with how we historically approach politicians. How often do we let these lies ferment?  We may lie to ourselves to stick with our political party, or the thing we’ve invested in. How often are we able to say, that was a bunch of hooey. We have to change course.

Dan Fouts  08:16

That’s great. This is my 29th year teaching government, and you definitely just made me realize that this quote would be perfect before a unit on campaigns and elections. You can find video clips of politicians who accidentally spoke the truth about a policy or program they were pitching, and that got them into trouble. They were hated for saying the truth of something. I think that would be a really good lesson there.

David Olson  08:57

Yeah, for sure. There’s a really good thought provoking movie, Bulworth with Warren Beatty from the early 1990s. It’s a little out there and you have to be selective in showing snippets of this to students. The premise of the film is that a politician, I think he’s a US senator, has hired someone to kill him. Since he’s going to die, he decides to tell the truth. He goes out on his re-election campaign, and tells everybody all the things they don’t want to hear.  What happens after that initial shock, is that he turns into a cult hero.  People say he shouldn’t be running for Senate, he should be running for president. It’s a crazy film, but if you want to have a good hook into that lesson, then go find a scene or two from the movie Bulworth where he says, this is the truth that no one will actually tell you.  In real life when politicians or media personalities say, I have the secret knowledge that the government/media doesn’t want you to know, we may think they are dabbling in conspiracy theories. That’s something else for students to grapple with. Where is the truth? How do we objectively find it? We can do that on a very philosophical level. We can also ask how we should evaluate this claim, or this government policy to figure out what it is that we ought to do?

Steve Fouts  11:10

Yeah, that’s great. I love those applications. The political context is perfect. I remember that movie from way back. It’s funny that by telling the truth, he ends up becoming this reluctant leader, which is almost flirting with the counterclaim to the quote. Maybe telling the truth isn’t such a bad thing, in certain contexts. Here’s a question for students that’s a little bit more personal. Think about asking students if they’ve ever had someone say something to them that they knew was the truth, but they didn’t like it, and they got angry. They knew that what they were being told was on the up and up, but they didn’t like it. See if you could get some students to share some experiences or stories like that.

Dan Fouts  12:28

I think you can get personal with this quote. I was thinking of an example, Steve, that a student might bring up. When a student is unveiling a litany of excuses as to why they did not turn in an assignment on time, and the teacher looks them dead in the eye and says, you didn’t do this because you weren’t committed to it. The student often reacts defensively and with anger, because they’re looking the truth right in the eye. I think a lot of kids could connect with that. Do you agree, Dave?

David Olson  13:09

Absolutely. I think you have examples there. I think one of the best ways to start a lesson like that is by modeling it. You have to as a teacher. You have to humanize yourself, and put yourself out there for better or worse. I can think of examples, personally and professionally, where I was told things or where I said things.  You can start with a very simple scenario of a time when your wife asks, does this outfit look good on me? Is there a good answer? Is there a truthful answer?  I’ve had these conversations with my wife, not so much about appearance, but about other things where the end answer for me is, if you didn’t want to know the truth, then don’t ask. Only ask if you actually want to know what I think.

I’m sure every teacher has had an observation or evaluation, with good, and not so good, administrators where they critique your lesson. Maybe they say part of your lesson didn’t go well, or you didn’t do a very good job with it.  I’ve been told that my wait time sucks, you called on too few kids, and you kept going back to the same well over and over. I’ve had those experiences where I walk out, and that’s the only thing I heard. It’s because it’s the truth, and it sticks with you. Sometimes it’s awful. When I was a teaching assistant in grad school, I’d have a page of great comments, but there’d be one or two that were negative. Those are the ones I remember. It’s hard to be upfront with students about some of those experiences about being confronted with the truth, but it is a very powerful way to start.

Steve Fouts  15:50

It does hurt, at times, if it was true and said in a blunt way. It’s contextual. It’s hard not to project that the person who said it is an enemy. How can I remain even keeled with this person who brought up this hurt? We don’t distinguish the truth from the messenger. They become blended. It’s a very human experience. Truth in life when you’re growing up is a big theme, and it obviously does not end when you become an adult. There’s a lot to this.

Dan Fouts  16:56

Maybe we look on the other side. Do you want to roll into the counterclaim, Steve?

Steve Fouts  17:01

Yeah. Dave, how would you state the counterclaim? What would you say is the best way to look at this quote and call it into question?

David Olson  17:18 – Counterclaim

I’m not going to lie, I struggled a bit to find the best counterclaim, one that attacked it head on. I think my approach to the counterclaim kind of comes in through the side door. I would also love to hear what the two of you have to say. My counterclaim is that the truth is incredibly powerful. If you want to engage in real change, it comes from confronting the truth. When we talk about what our goals are as individuals, communities, countries, and humanity, there isn’t a person out there who truly believes they are perfect, or that everything about their life, community, and society are perfect. Everyone wants change of some sort. The way you do that is by confronting and acknowledging the truth, then figuring out a way to change. How do we get students to dream, to envision that anything is possible, when in fact, it’s not? 

I grew up in the suburbs of Minneapolis. My plan was to play second base for the Minnesota Twins. By the age of 15, I couldn’t hit a curveball and my baseball career was done. It was never going to happen. What if someone told me that I’m not good at baseball. That I wasn’t going to make a career of it. You’re not going to be a multimillionaire. I think I probably would have accepted it and said, I realize that I have many deficiencies and shortcomings. But, if we embrace that too much and confront kids with the truth, those truths become weaponized. They’ve been used against marginalized students to say, it’s just not possible for you. Choose something else. Choose something easier, more attainable. Darn Plato, he’s so meaty with his nuance.

Dan Fouts  20:11

That’s an interesting take on the counterclaim. You’re kind of playing with the idea of truth, and how it can be good or bad. The way I looked at the counterclaim is to restate it as, no one is more hated than he who lies. I would immediately ask this question to the kids who shared stories about when someone told them the truth, and they vented their anger on the messenger. Have you ever been deceived by somebody? Share a couple of those, and then get the kids to compare the hurt that was caused by someone who told the truth and the hurt caused by someone who told a lie. See which of those caused more lasting damage. They might realize that as much as the truth hurt them, it didn’t hurt as much as the deceit and the lying. Maybe they can get over the hurt from the truth easier.  It depends on the stories they come up with. That’s the angle I would take on this.

David Olson  21:35

I have to tell you the truth. Damn, that’s a much better approach to the counterclaim than the one I took.

Steve Fouts  21:43

Dave, the way we think about it is that you have to get a counterclaim, that almost convinces you away from your belief.  It’s a game you play with yourself.  We do this all day, every day, so this is easier for us to process. Hate comes from liars, too, but it’s so different. The truth is up front. A lie has to be discovered sometimes. There’s another layer of nefarious behavior that you have to accommodate. When your good friend lies to you, it’s difficult to get over. Plato’s using the word hate, and that got me to think of this.

David Olson  23:10

I probably agree with the counterclaim more than Plato’s claim. Dan’s explanation and what you followed it up with, Steve, makes more sense. I have two thoughts on this. The first is, I actually see the hate from the truth coming from the fragility of ego. You hate being confronted with the truth, because it harms what you want to believe is true, not what is actually true. The harm that comes from a lie, harms the truth. It deceives and obscures the truth. I mentioned earlier that people think of bluntness as a virtue, perhaps a false virtue. Perhaps that’s what Plato is arguing here, as a man who philosophizes professionally, who sees it as his job to bring uncomfortable truths to light. When people react negatively, Plato says, I tell it like it is and some people just can’t handle it.

Steve Fouts  25:02

Well said. We never know where to go with the author of these quotes, because the authors are lessons in and of themselves that can help the kids understand where the quote may be coming from.

David Olson  25:19

Yeah. I can imagine it would be helpful to learn about Plato.

Steve Fouts  25:24

I would add this in, Dave, and this won’t surprise you. Plato’s beloved teacher, that he was a disciple of, was executed by his own democracy, his own city, for telling the truth. The official charge was corrupting the youth. That was Socrates. I can see this quote emanating from someone frustrated, trying to understand how his own society could kill who he thought was one of the greatest people in the world. It does make the quote more understandable. When you introduce it to the kids, it’s kind of nice for them to not know where it’s coming from, at least at the beginning. 

David Olson  26:25

That sort of ties up where I was going with my counterclaim. What is the power of truth, and when is truth necessary?  I coached high school tennis for over a decade, and was a competitive speaking and acting coach, too. As a teacher or coach, your job is to move a student/athlete from point A to point B in their skill development, performance, etc.. There are plenty of times when you could confront a student and say, your thesis is terrible, or your backhand is worse than mine. Your performance doesn’t make me feel anything that you want me to feel. You’re not producing any sort of emotions out of your audience. Those are all truths, and things I could have said to plenty of students along the way. But, if the goal is to get a student to improve and further their abilities, how can you shape the truth and explain things in a way that doesn’t lie to them or confront them with something that will make them shut down. Now, you’re right, Dan, that in the end, it might turn into love, admiration, or acceptance, but which way is it more likely to get there, through the massaging of truths in a way that makes someone receptive to listen, or in confronting them with the cold, hard facts of the situation? 

Steve Fouts  28:46

Dave, I love how you said massaging the truth, instead of lie. That’s the context. I think there is an art to communicating the truth when you’re nurturing and mentoring someone. You can share things with them that are not lies or 100% blunt truths. There’s an art to it.

Dan Fouts  29:34

That’s an art. What you described, Dave, I think, is teaching. 

David Olson  29:41

Absolutely.

Dan Fouts  29:42

Especially on a one-on-one level. When you need to get a kid on your side, you have to come up with that magical balance of telling them the brutal truth and caring for their ego, because if you miss that on one side or the other, they’re not going anywhere.  Each kid has a different golden mean,a different middle ground.

David Olson  30:09

Yes, precisely, which is why teaching 30 kids at one time is nearly impossible. Where do you aim for a golden mean to move the class? But, you’re correct, if you don’t find the right approach, you end up with a student believing they are successful when they are not, or a kid who has shut down. To find that middle ground is nearly impossible to do with 30 humans at a time, yet, you do your best. Sometimes you aim for the middle, or find ways to address students in different ways. That’s education. You’re trying to help someone become a better version of themselves, develop a new skill, or grow skills and abilities that they have.

Dan Fouts  31:39

It’s also parenting.

David Olson  31:41

Very true.

Dan Fouts  31:42

It’s human development. Well, this has been a really interesting conversation, Dave. We went in different directions, but I thought they were all productive. We explored the claim, the counterclaim, and connected it to the teaching profession with its challenges. There’s that pressure to either tell the truth or to massage the truth in a way that contributes to the personal development of the people in front of you. This is a tough job, but it’s fun. 

David Olson  32:28

Absolutely. I think the wonderful part about teaching is when you see growth, and when you realize that the seeds you planted have sprouted into something. Hopefully, that includes your relationship with students, that they understand what you do as an educator comes from a place of love, and that you figure out how to approach the truth in the best manner that you see fit as a teacher.

Steve Fouts  33:21

I think kids are great at hearing the truth, for the most part. They know if you care about them, then they want the truth. If they catch you trying to work around something, sugarcoat it, they’re going to think you don’t care about them. I have a lot of optimism.

Dan Fouts  33:49

Well, Dave, before we go, do you want to tell our listeners how they could get in touch with you at the Retro Report?

David Olson  33:57

Absolutely. Any teachers out there who are interested in learning more about Retro Report, visit our website with all of our entirely free resources, lesson plans, student activities, and a treasure trove of over 250 short films which are perfect for the classroom. They can check us out at retroreport.org If you want to go to the education page, it’s retroreport.org/education. You can get in touch with me directly by email at dolson@retroreport.org or you can find me on Twitter which is where I connected with your wonderful co-hosts. My Twitter handle is all one word @Davidjohnolson. Look for me at conferences. That’s part of my job now, to find teachers at conferences like NCSS, NCHE, and regional and state level social studies conferences. If you tell me that you heard me on the Teach Different podcast, I’ll make sure you get the good swag. All of those fantastic giveaways.

Dan Fouts  35:27 – Essential Question

That’s great. Well, we’re going to end with an essential question to keep us thinking. We like to model that, but we always say that during these conversations, your kids will come up with the very best questions of all. Here’s our essential question for tonight: Should we tell the truth? Let the kids chew on that for a while. You can revisit a question like that so many times during a school year, no matter what you’re teaching.  Dave, thank you so much for being our guest. We appreciated your perspective and what you’re doing for the teaching profession at the Retro Report.

David Olson  36:16

Absolutely. Thank you very much for the opportunity, gentlemen.

Steve Fouts  36:18

Thank you, Dave. Thank you.

Dan Fouts  36:20

Thanks, everybody. We hope you’re walking away feeling energized by some great ideas, and have a sense of confidence that you too can master the art and science of conversations to make a lasting impact. We at Teach Different are dedicated to supporting you along that journey. Please visit teachdifferent.com to join our Community of Educators for additional resources and engaging discussion among fellow teachers and administrators, free for 30 days. We’ll see you there and next time on the Teach Different Podcast, take care!