“You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.” Marcus Aurelius – Self Awareness

Transcript

Introduction: 0:00 

Hello, Steve and Dan Fouts here. We’re veteran educators from Illinois, who’ve created the Teach Different podcast to model how to have unforgettable conversations using a super simple three-step method with quotes from some of the world’s greatest thinkers. This method works with students of all ages and in all types of classrooms, and can be used in online or face-to-face environments. So, if you’re a teacher, administrator, social emotional learning specialist, or anybody who loves the art of conversations, you’ve come to the right place. Welcome.  

Dan Fouts: 0:36 

We’re back for the Teach Different podcast. We’re really excited this week to have a quote from a stoic philosopher and former Roman Emperor, Marcus Aurelius. We’re going to be laying out that quote, but before we get started let’s talk a little bit about the Teach Different method. We’re going to start with the quote from Aurelius, then we’re going to work on the claim of the quote (what it means in our own words), consider a counterclaim to the quote to get a little conversation going, and then end with an essential question. We have two guests tonight with fascinating backgrounds. They’re going to be awesome participants.  We’ll have them introduce themselves when they first weigh in on the quote. 

Let’s begin with Marcus Aurelius. If you’re familiar with the philosophy of stoicism, you will definitely see that reflected here. It’s a long quote so we’ll try to say it as many times as we can during the conversation. “You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this and you will find strength.” Now, I’ll just say it one more time, “You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this and you will find strength.”  Who would like to start with the claim for this quote? What is Marcus Aurelius saying here?

Herb Baker: 2:22 – Claim

I’m Herb Baker. I worked for NASA for 42 years, and retired about four years ago.  I should point out though, since most people expect that if you worked for NASA you were a scientist, an engineer, or an astronaut, that I’m a business person who majored in business. Even though I grew up with the space program, I didn’t realize until I was in college that you could work and have a career at NASA without being an astronaut, a scientist, or an engineer. But it turns out that about one-third of the NASA workforce is in business, finance, HR, and public affairs. 

Back to the quote. To me, the word “strength” in the quote means having the strength or the willpower to live your life the way you want to live it, to do the things you want to do without worrying about things you can’t control. Don’t let those things stop you. This doesn’t mean that there aren’t consequences to your actions, but you’re willing to accept those. 

Steve Fouts: 3:59 

Interesting. I like the word control. Herb, I don’t know if you read up on stoicism,  but that word always comes up. This idea of what we can control and what we can’t control. The idea of wisdom is what I’m seeing here. Marcus Aurelius is basically giving the stoic philosophy. If you can figure out what you’re in control of, and just hone in on that and leave everything else, don’t form an opinion about the rest of the world, then you’re going to find peace and happiness. 

Herb Baker: 4:41 

That brought up the other thing I was going to mention about the quote that gave me a lot of thought or caused me to think a lot. The word strength. I’m not sure what exactly is meant by that. That’s not a state of being like happiness.  I can understand if he had said, realize this and you will find happiness. Strength is just a means to an end, and who knows what the end is. That was the thought that kept occurring to me. This would make much more sense, or I could understand it better, if the end of the quote was, realize this and you will find happiness, rather than strength. If you ask someone, which would you rather have strength or happiness, most people are going to say happiness. They’re going to wonder what kind of strength.

Carol Kravetz: 5:52 

Carol Kravetz from West Bloomfield, Michigan. I was a teacher to two-year olds through high school. I’ve taught them all. To me, this quote reminds me of the prayer, “God grant me the wisdom to know what I can control, to be able to decipher between what I can control and what I can’t, and to accept what I can’t control because that’s outside of my purview.” 

Herb Baker: 6:31 

Yes, exactly. I even have that jotted down in my notes. I thought the quote sounded familiar. I mean the concept or the intent of it.

Dan Fouts: 6:47 

It sounds like, Herb, that Carol stumbled into an answer to your question of why he uses the word strength. He uses strength because it gives you the fortitude to accept the world as it is. It takes a lot of strength to see the world unravel in front of your very eyes. Look at the pandemic. The world has unraveled in front of our very eyes. It takes a certain strength to look at this experience and say, I am still in control here. I still have a source of strength in my mind, even though the world is going to heck in a handbasket in front of me.

Carol Kravetz: 7:37 

You can control what’s within you to control, what’s inside of yourself.  You really have to accept, and that takes a great deal of strength, that you cannot control  others, and you cannot control events, other than what you do in regard to it. 

Herb Baker: 8:02 

Yeah, I agree. One of the things that I continually think about is that you decide the quality of your consciousness. So happiness is a choice. I’m a firm believer in that.  Another one of my favorite quotes is that pain is inevitable. Misery is optional.  

Steve Fouts: 8:25 

Interesting. 

Herb Baker: 8:26 

And that’s easier said than done, sometimes, so to speak. But I think about that a lot. 

Steve Fouts: 8:37 

I have a question for the group. Can we try to get into the mind of an adolescent right now. I’d love to know how you think they would react to a quote like this? Where are they on the continuum of realizing that their strength, their happiness, who they are as a person, is something that they choose. Do they understand agency, or do they see the world as constantly acting on them and it’s their job to somehow function in it. 

Carol Kravetz: 9:22 

I dealt more with eighth graders. And eighth graders are being bombarded all the  time by things external to them, and they’re trying to navigate. It’s not so much  that they see themselves as having strength to address it, as it pertains to them, 

but as it’s coming at them. They’re reactionary. But that’s 8th grade, thirteen and fourteen year olds. They’re reacting to the world outside coming at them. They don’t see the strength within them to differentiate what they can control and what they can’t. They either back down from it, or they address it in an aggressive manner. 

Herb Baker: 10:25 

I do think there is a continuum of that understanding and knowledge, and if  they’re anything like me, it took a while. I would say that whatever age you want to classify as adolescents, they’re at the very beginning of that.  It took me some time to understand the kinds of things we’re talking about here, where you decide the quality of your consciousness. That happiness is a choice, and you don’t need to worry about things that you can’t control. Not just physical things that happen, but things like what other people say, or what other people think about you. If you worry about what someone thinks about you, or what someone says about you, or how someone reacts to you, it can cause you to think something or not do something.  If you had a little more understanding and knowledge that none of that really matters, that you can’t control that and you’re not even going to worry about it, then you can do your own thing based on how you feel and want to live your life.  

Carol Kravetz: 11:51 

That’s where the strength comes in. Very young children are very self focused. The world dances around them, but their internal mechanism is what they’re concerned with. As they get older, it’s everything around them that’s bombarding them, and they’re reactionary to it.  It takes a long time to get over being overly concerned with exterior forces and what people think about you and what people say about you. It takes a long time to develop that strength to be able to say, it doesn’t matter. 

Steve Fouts: 12:42 

In what way would they appreciate having power over their mind?  What would that mean to a student? I’m trying to think of a prompt to use during a conversation in class where you would ask a student to share a story about an instance in their life where they were able to, with their own mind, decide to be happy, or overcome some really difficult circumstance. I’m trying to think of a good storytelling prompt. 

Dan Fouts: 13:24 

Yeah, I was thinking about that, Steve.  I would ask the kids to give me an experience in life where they had something thrown at them, and used their mind and strengths to overcome it. Something like doing poorly on an exam, but not giving up, realizing you were having a bad day, or that you didn’t try as hard as was necessary.  You kept your mind focused and didn’t let outside events, like the evaluator control you. You controlled yourself, improved, and moved forward. Or someone doesn’t make the team. 

Carol Kravetz: 14:02

Sports analogies work well. I had a bad day on the field, and people were saying things about me. I realize that it’s within me, not what they’re saying, but it’s within me to get better, to do better.  

Steve Fouts: 14:21 

Right. 

Carol Kravetz: 14:22 

Sports analogies always work well. With girls participating more and more in sports, like dance or gymnastics, or other sports, they can appreciate that type of analogy. There are people, from other teams or even their own teammates, who are going to say things that are derogatory. It’s strength, and you have to teach them that, that it’s their strength to be able to hear it and not react to it. Let it be the strength within themselves. 

Herb Baker: 15:07 

This may be a different twist on that. It’s something that occurred to me while thinking about this conversation. I do acting on the side, not professionally, but with a community theater. I’ve been in about 20 shows, Shakespeare, comedy, musicals, drama, and mysteries. I have to audition for those parts and those shows. It’s like a competition. There are usually multiple people who want a particular role, and you need to do better than the other people. It can be very stressful and you worry, am I going to make it or will that person who looks better than me get it? Finally it sunk in. You don’t know what the director wants. The director choosing the cast may have a particular look in mind, or a particular height of a person, or whatever.  It finally occurred to me that I can’t control any of that. All I need to do is go in there and do my best, give my best performance, and not worry about who else is there. Having that mindset made everything so much less stressful and easier. It basically comes down to don’t worry about things you can’t control.  

Steve Fouts: 17:17 

Did you get strength through that?  

Herb Baker: 17:18 

Well, in a way. 

Steve Fouts: 17:19 

Did you use that word?  

Herb Baker: 17:20 

That word didn’t really come to mind as I was thinking through that, but I think in a way, that’s what it is. It was that strength to just…  

Steve Fouts: 17:33 

Or a confidence maybe? 

Herb Baker: 17:34 

Yeah, that’s a good way to put it. Go out and do my thing and be confident. Knowing that I’m doing the best I can, and it may or may not be what somebody else wants, but that’s not my problem. 

Steve Fouts: 17:53 – Counterclaim

That’s a great analogy. It really is. Needing that confidence to block out the rest of the world. What do you think about another way to push back on this quote? Let’s turn to the counterclaim. Let me read the quote again, “You have power over your mind, not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.”

Herb Baker: 18:35 

So, I gave that a little thought, and what occurred to me was that life is not quite as simple as that quote implies. You can say that about a lot of quotes, some of them are hyperbole. There may be a negative truth in there, but it’s a little overextended, just to make a point.  What I’m getting at here is that, and I didn’t realize this until the last  few years, to say to someone with a mental health issue like anxiety or depression, don’t worry about those other things and you’ll gain strength. Well it’s easier said than done.  The worst thing you can do to someone who’s suffering like that is to tell them to get over it, or here’s the answer, just read this quote and solve your problem. That’s absolutely not the truth.

Carol Kravetz: 19:45 

Sometimes you can say get over it, and it works. It’s a continuum as you say.

Herb Baker: 19:55 

I’ll admit there are some situations where that might be true, where that might
be the appropriate response.  

Carol Kravetz: 19:57

Yeah, just get over it and walk away.  

Herb Baker: 20:02 

Again, getting back to the point, life is just not that simple sometimes. 
Carol Kravetz: 20:08 

And like I said, eighth graders are reactionary. 

Dan Fouts: 20:10 

And Herb, I don’t think you mentioned this in your intro, but you teach kids as well, in a different kind of setting. 

Herb Baker: 20:21 

Yes, you’re right. I didn’t mention that. I’m not a school teacher. My teaching is done more through interviews, presentations, and speeches, which I’ve given to children and adults of all ages. I’ve literally done Zoom conversations and Q&A with 5, 6, and 7 year olds. I’ve gone to elementary schools, middle schools, high schools, and even talked with college students. I’m not a  classroom teacher, but I’ve experienced pretty much the full gamut of student reactions. 

Carol Kravetz: 21:33 

If we could just teach people that what’s outside of you really is irrelevant to you. Let it pass, let it go. Your strength is within you. 

Dan Fouts: 21:51 

That’s going back to the claim. I hear what you’re saying, Carol. I was thinking with the counterclaim, if the world is spinning out of control, if it’s chaotic, or it’s traumatic, what you find is not strength, you find weakness. You find that you are at the mercy of the world sometimes. I’m not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, per se, but it’s not strength. I would push back here. I would say it’s a humble understanding that you are not as strong as you thought you were. That’s a life lesson, that in certain situations you are not in control of anything, including your mind. That’s how I would push  back. I would ask my students, what’s an example when you felt in life that things were completely out of your control, and how did you react to that? 

Carol Kravetz: 23:15 

I still think if you can teach that strength to separate what is within your control,  and what isn’t, that we’d have a lot fewer impetuous and aggressive adults. 

Steve Fouts: 23:34 

I did most of my teaching in an urban setting on the west side of Chicago in underserved neighborhoods, mainly high school neighborhoods. One thing that I noticed about my students is that they came from traumatic environments, not very stable home situations. The school was kind of a safe place. I noticed over the years that the students who seem to be looked up to the most by the other students, were the quieter ones, the ones who weren’t running around worried about their reputation, trying to prove themselves. The quieter ones who had a lot of self  control is maybe the way to put it. 

Carol Kravetz: 24:48 

Right.  

Steve Fouts: 24:49

And I’m just wondering if that’s related somehow to proving Marcus’s point here. You get strength by getting your mind right and letting a crazy world not get to you. 

Carol Kravetz: 25:07 

If we could impart that the control is the strength and it is within them, then maybe we can dissipate some of that anxiety. It’s almost like they’re waiting for the world to say something, do something, bump a shoulder, walk by, look the  other way, and then they can react to that. They’re in so much pain, that they almost need a distraction from it. 

Steve Fouts: 25:41 

Yeah, it’s deep. The issues are really deep. When you get the students in these conversations, if you give the right prompt, you’re going to have some who share more than they had planned.  

Were you going to say something? I didn’t want to interrupt. 

Herb Baker: 26:06 

No, this conversation made me start thinking about, and maybe this is getting a  little off, emotional intelligence. Even if you understand that you have power over your mind and you should not be overly concerned about things you can’t control, you can have that strength, most of the time, but it’s really difficult to always be strong. I don’t care who you are, there are times when you’re going to be upset or angry or disappointed or sad.  I’ve actually given a couple of speeches about emotional intelligence, and they talk about the difference between responding and reacting. Reaction is just an emotional reaction without stopping to think about your response. What you should be thinking is what are the consequences of what you’re going to say or do and how does that affect you and the other people around you. This kind of thing is easier to talk about than to actually do and live. That’s just what I was thinking about from your discussion.

Dan Fouts: 27:28 

I think this could be a sensitive conversation depending on how it’s brought into the class. I teach social studies in high school, and I can see this conversation happening right before the Civil Rights Movement. You’re setting up this idea that there are leaders who understand the power of their own mind, and are able to control their behavior to pursue certain goals, even when the whole world seems against them. The strength that they have. I think of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr’s  letter from a Birmingham Jail, where he was willing to go to jail as a sign of strength and power over his own mind. Or, think of the women’s rights  movement. Any kind of movement in history could be taught better with a conversation like this because kids can connect with their own capacity to control their thoughts, and then compare it with the capacity that historical figures had in doing what they did. That’s the kind of curriculum connection that I think can be really powerful.

Steve Fouts: 28:59 

I agree. If you were going to ask ten kids, do you think you have power over your mind, or do you think the world has power over you? Eight or nine out of ten are going to say the world wins. You’re going to come up against some students who are going to want to know more about what this actually means, to have power over your mind. It’s going to be a newer concept. 

Dan Fouts: 29:33 – Essential Question

This has been a really interesting conversation about some really important issues. I hadn’t considered a lot of these issues in all of the areas that we covered, but it does have applications on a personal level, in a big way. And, depending on the age of students, they’re going to see this differently.  That’s just the way it is.  We’re all adults, and we need this conversation. I think this conversation is important during any time in our life, thinking about what we control with our mind versus what is out of our control in the world.  

To wrap up here. We like to end with an essential question. This is a way to wrap  up the conversation in class. What in life is actually in our control?  

Carol Kravetz: 30:40 

Beautiful. 

Dan Fouts: 30:41 

Leave them with that for the rest of their life, not just the class period, but the rest of their life. So, Herb, Carol, thank you so much. This was wonderful. We appreciate your perspectives and your wisdom, and we hope to have you back.  

Carol Kravetz: 30:55 

Thank you.  

Herb Baker: 30:56 

Yes, thank you. I enjoyed it.  

Postscript: 30:58 

Thanks, everybody. We hope you’re walking away feeling energized by some great ideas, and are confident that conversations like this are possible. It’s just a little bit of planning and a three-step routine. Make sure you go to our Conversation Library to try out some conversations we have ready for you. Don’t forget to Teach Different with conversations and make a difference every day.