“If you wish to be out front, then act as if you were behind.” Lao Tzu – Humility

Transcript

Introduction: 0:00 

Hello, Steve and Dan Fouts here. We’re veteran educators from Illinois, who’ve created the Teach Different podcasts to model how to have unforgettable conversations using a super simple three-step method, and quotes from some of the world’s great thinkers. This method works with students of all ages and all types of classrooms, and can be used in online or face-to-face environments. So, if you’re a teacher, administrator, social emotional learning specialist, or anybody who loves the art of conversations, you’ve come to the right place. Welcome.  

Dan Fouts: 00:37 

Welcome to the Teach Different Podcast this week. We’re very excited to have a quote from Lao Tzu on humility. It’s also a bit on leadership. However our guests interpreted the quote is what the focus will be. We’re gonna get into the quote in a minute, but I want to introduce our guests. We have two of them tonight, Stephanie and Nadia. They will introduce themselves when they first weigh in on the quote. Remember our structure. We’re going to start with the quote, talk about the claim of the quote, what Lao Tzu is saying, and then we’re  going to move into the counterclaim, go against what he is saying.  We’ll end with a provocative essential question. Along the way we’re going to try to make curriculum connections for you, and have a very light, philosophical, fun conversation. Remember the whole point here is that all of you can use this in your classroom with your students. We want our listeners to be envisioning this conversation being played out with the young people under their care. The adults are going to talk about it first, and that’s what we’re here for. Here’s the quote, “If you wish to be out front, then act as if you were behind.” Would anyone like to weigh in? Please introduce yourself when you do so. 

Stephanie Wager: 2:21 – Claim

Sure Dan, I’ll take a stab. This is Stephanie Wager. I am the current education  Partner Manager at the OER project and President of the National Council for the  Social Studies this year. This quote really stood out to me. It felt like it had such a layered meaning. When I first read it, I certainly responded to the humility part with a reflection of the leader, but then when I read it a few more times the second layer emerged, that this could be a little bombastic. The word “act” really stood out to me. Is it a genuine sort of nature to say true leaders really let others go first, or is it, act as if you’re behind in order to appear as if you’re out front. I’m looking forward to unpacking that and talking about that a little bit more. 

Nadia Moreno: 3:35 

I’ll follow Stephanie. My name is Nadia Moreno and I currently work at Marengo High School in Illinois. I try to support teachers, language wise, and I’ve been supporting the Social Studies Department. I’ve used quotes like this as a technique to open windows to see who the person is. When I read the quote, I see two things as a language teacher. I see language and culture, and a great opportunity to tap into the culture of a student, to see if the student has collectivism or individualism.

Steve Fouts: 4:53 

Good Dan. Read the quote again.

Dan Fouts: 4:54 

If you wish to be out front, then act as if you were behind. 

Steve Fouts: 5:01 

There is some language there that is subtle. Nadia, I appreciate your comments  about using a collectivism or individualism approach to understanding a quote like this. Stephanie, I had the same reaction that you did. I immediately thought this quote is all about being humble. But then, out of nowhere, I started thinking that maybe this quote is about being ambitious, and actually wanting to get in front of other people. How do you do that? Well, you use this little tactic called acting, and act like you’re behind them. It’s a very effective way to get what you want. I lost the humility angle and started thinking that this was tactical advice that Lao Tzu was giving.  I don’t know if that is part of the spirit of what you were saying, but I had the same reaction regarding the double meaning. 

Stephanie Wager: 6:10 

I also loved what Nadia brought in about thinking about it through a cultural lens. I hadn’t thought of that. Thinking of the culture, and the time period of when this was said, could add a lot of interesting meaning to what is intended here as well. What Nadia was saying piqued my interest for sure.  

Nadia Moreno: 6:42 

I find your take very interesting too, because it sounds more like a strategy for leaders. But I’m thinking of the students that I’ve had, of a class with various demographics. I wonder how they would see this. I want to narrow it down to Hispanic students. They value humbleness, and being humble. Something that is very different from the American perspective, where you should not be humble, that it’s looked at as a weakness rather than a strength. I feel that this could be a good opportunity for a teacher to learn about the values of the students. 

Dan Fouts: 7:41 

I love that. To put this in front of your students to figure out what they value in life, right? Are they humble, or are they overconfident? That’s what you’re getting at Nadia. 

Nadia Moreno: 7:56 

Yes, I think I am getting to that point. 

Dan Fouts: 7:58 

Building on that a little bit as a behavioral strategy for humility, of saying to yourself, if you want to be out front metaphorically in life, if you want to be successful, if you want to get places, then you always have to be humble with what you know. You have to want to learn and want to grow as a person. You can’t walk around overconfident, thinking that you know everything, because you’re never going to get out in front. I guess I thought of “out in front” more like happiness in life or success in something, broader than leadership. 

Stephanie Wager: 8:56 

I like how Nadia, and you as well, Dan, brought up values and how we were raised stood out to me when you were mentioning that. Certainly in my upbringing, I was raised to not be bombastic, to be a servant leader in that regard. It just caught my attention. I was raised to think that true leadership is staying behind to let others speak or take center stage. I have a silly example that’s not classroom based at all. In my previous position I did a lot of professional development and sometimes we would have lunch catered in. I remember thinking that I need to make sure I’m last in line as the facilitator of the PD, because I don’t want people to think that as the facilitator I deserve to jump to the front of the line. A super silly example, but that is literally the analogy that popped into my head when I first read this quote. 

Steve Fouts: 10:14 

I thought of another quote by Lao Tzu. Dan, I think we were mentioning this before, “to lead people, walk behind them.” That’s another quote from the same Chinese philosopher. So these are two peas in a pod here. These two quotes are saying the same thing. I have a question for the group. What do you see as a good storytelling prompt that you could put out there for the students to really get into how they are understanding this quote? You know, what would be a good question you could ask them that could get them to start telling stories, and sharing experiences about leadership and different approaches. Perhaps they’ve taken to leadership in their life. Does anyone have an idea? 

Stephanie Wager: 11:14 

Sure. I think this quote would be phenomenal to use with case studies of historical leadership. To give students George Washington, or Joan of Arc, or anybody throughout history who has been seen as a leader, and ask them to unpack their leadership. Even though they’re very visible, are they leading from behind or are they trying to be the no at all. That would be fascinating. I think through the case study you would really unpack, as Nadia said, some of the values and some of the ways in which students are interpreting that person’s  leadership, or maybe not leadership, depending upon how they’re perceiving the  quote. I would love to hear student’s responses to that. 

Nadia Moreno: 12:15

Now that you mentioned that Stephanie, thank you. You gave me an idea. In Spanish specifically you do that too, you have to bring in characters from the Spanish speaking world, and determine… What really is your goal is to become aware of your own culture. That is one key part, so you can understand differences, and also how we are the same and how we are different, and just understanding the cultural part of a country. That would be a good scenario to use in a Spanish class, to study a character and determine how to apply this (quote) to that person. That’s a very good idea. 

Dan Fouts: 13:20 

I had another idea on storytelling. Maybe you could ask a question like, what do you get from being humble? What is the reward for being humble? I would love to ask that of a student who constantly wants to be out front, who wants to be the spokesperson for the whole class. Just point blank, ask it to the class and then look at the student who you really want to answer. To see them process a new idea, that being humble can be a virtue, would be fascinating. For a lot of kids, and Nadia, to your point, in a mixed demographic class, I think it’d be great for kids to hear the different takes that they have on the value of humility. They could learn about how they’re processing in a really interesting way. 

Nadia Moreno: 14:25 

In many ways, they’re very receptive to that. They see it not as a person that told  them, but as an understanding of who a person is, and why that is valuable.  So, when I first read this quote that is the first thing that I made a connection with. 

Stephanie Wager: 14:49 

Yeah, I think the other thing that would be really interesting, and I don’t have good answers for this, but to think about leadership across time, has the perception of what that means changed. Getting students to dig into what was valued hundreds of years ago to today, going back to Nadia’s point about culture. What is valued in particular times in history or cultures and how has that changed over time? I think that would be a fascinating case study too. Even within the past 10 years in the U.S. our perception of what we mean when we say leadership has probably changed as a society.  So, I think that would be fascinating too. In my free time, I’ll do some thinking about that.

Steve Fouts: 15:53 – Counterclaim

Definitely do that. Let me do this. I think we’re ready for the counterclaim. Okay now, this is the fun part of the conversation. If we’re all in agreement that what this quote is really addressing is humility, and the benefits of humility to a leader (If you want to be out front, then be behind). If that’s really the claim, that humility has a value to it. What would the counterclaim be? Where do you see some students pushing back on this? Especially when you talk about something like leadership, where a lot of people want to see strength from a leader. I’ll stop there. I don’t want to answer it for everybody. How do you see the counterclaim? How would you put it into your own words? 

Nadia Moreno: 17:01 

I thought about this. I’m sorry, Stephanie, did I jump in front?  

Stephanie Wager: 17:05 

Oh, you go. Go.  

Nadia Moreno: 17:06 

I’m going to be humble. I’m going to let you go.  

Dan: 17:12

That’s great. That’s fantastic.  

Stephanie Wager: 17:16 

Oh yeah, we’re showing the real meaning here of our quote in our actions. In my own words, it’s something like, leaders should be seen, and forceful, and present in some way, if they want to make change or be seen as a leader. In my words, this would be the counterclaim to the quote. We’re thinking more narrowly about leadership as sort of forceful, invisible, rather than behind the scenes. I think about this a lot while wearing my NCSS hat this year. I try really hard to make sure other people are speaking or serving on things, or whatever. That might be because that’s just my philosophy of leadership. The counterclaim is hard for me, because to me it’s the opposite view of making sure that you’re out front and being kind of forceful in that. So yeah, I’ll stop there. Nadia, weigh in on this too. 

Nadia Moreno: 18:36 

For me, this was hard too, because culturally I believe in humbleness. But what I really like about it is that you can’t think that one thing is the best for everything,  because of perception. On the other hand, if someone perceives you as too humble, can they follow you? Do they see you as a leader? You know, perception is reality, right?  I wonder where to stop, and when. There are other things that come into play for me. It will be enriching, especially for Spanish students. Again, being in that role, I always think about that community. It shapes those beliefs in a different way. How can you use this to think it is great to be humble? It makes you have a great community around you, a great family, but how or where can you limit it and be human in a different way? 

Dan Fouts: 20:04

To be human in a different way is a beautiful way of putting that, Nadia. It’s not saying don’t be yourself, but rather show a different side of yourself, preserving your integrity in the process. That builds on the way I think of the counterclaim, just the idea of being assertive is okay sometimes. To assert your needs and yourself, whether it be over people or over an environment, or to step up in a project or whatever, that’s okay as long as you maintain humility in the process. People appreciate you more if that other side of you comes out. Sometimes it makes you more valued. Nadia, I think we’re thinking identically tonight on a lot of these issues. Those are my thoughts. 

Stephanie Wager: 20:58 

I think my response to that is I wonder about unpacking the perception of assertiveness. At least in my mind, I’m wondering about the balance between assertiveness and pushing it over the edge. Maybe my experience as a female too, that there is a little bit of that coming into my thinking. Maybe the cultural expectations of how assertive females are versus males, and not personally feeling like that is as easy to do sometimes as a female. That was what popped into my head as you were talking, Dan, me always trying to think about that balance between being assertive and then pushing that perception over to something else. But, to Nadia’s point earlier, I loved “perception is reality, “ because if there’s that perception that you’re too humble and you’re not assertive enough, then you’re not going to get the outcome that you want in making change. This is a tricky balance.  

Nadia Moreno: 22:23 

I agree with you, Stephanie. 

Dan Fouts: 22:29 

It’s funny, listening to this conversation I’m imagining when things were normal and we were actually in classrooms. Whenever we’re starting a little project, where you have four students in a little pod in the back of the room, and there’s this silence at the beginning of the project, when it’s clear that no one is taking a leadership role, no one is asserting anything to get the ball rolling. That is needed. And Stephanie, obviously in your leadership experience, sometimes it’s needed for someone to push a little bit. Then as you’re saying, you have to back it up. It’s such a difficult balance. The point you make about gender is so true. That’s a whole new discussion in and of itself.  We’re not going to get to that today, but you’re so right. 

Stephanie Wager: 23:29 

As you were speaking Dan, what popped into my  head is, if I were doing this in the classroom, maybe backing up a minute to do some hexagonal thinking to have student’s unpack these words that we’re talking about. What do assertiveness, act, and behind mean? I think if you launched into the case studies that we were talking about earlier, you would have clear agreement, or clear thinking, from the class about what assertive means, and how we value that. That just popped into my head as you were talking. It’s something that I would do as a teacher ahead of time, before we even got into some of these case studies looking at leadership. 

Steve Fouts: 24:23 

Great point, Stephanie. We’ve found that when you actually put these quotes in front of students, a really good activity before you get into claims, counterclaims, and essential questions, is to circle the really interesting words. Those can be many conversations in and of themselves and can make the claim conversation more productive because you’re dealing with the same language. Where you’re coming from Nadia, I’m sure you can appreciate that getting everyone on the same page with key words is going to include many more students than if we just kept reading the quote and went right into the conversation. 

Nadia Moreno: 25:13 

I completely agree. I call it popular wisdom, where it doesn’t start with debate or opposition, but with common wisdom. Everybody knows about it, has experienced it, in one way or another, in different contexts, under different flags and races. That is a good start, and I wait to bring people together.

Dan Fouts: 25:57 

Really well said. It’s a way everyone has shared common ground, and it’s like you’re saying, it’s not a debate. The purpose of these conversations is for  understanding, more than winning. You’re not trying to win a debate, you’re trying to understand each other.  Which is probably why, Nadia, in a language class, this protocol – claim, counterclaim, and quote – is  really good for language acquisition. You had mentioned that. 

Nadia Moreno: 26:29 

Oh, totally. Yes. One of the things that I’ve seen a lot of teachers do who don’t have experience dealing with language and in addressing language learners, is that the first tool that they use is Google Translate. I would do that, too. What I have found is that this is usually a bad practice. However, with this quote, it does work, because you just need to translate the popular wisdom into any language. What you have to make sure of is that you have a way for the students to come back with their thoughts to open the window to learn more about the student. They are not empty buckets, they have something in them, but it’s really hard if the only way they have to communicate is through a complex language that they haven’t yet acquired.

Steve Fouts: 26:37

Right, so start with common key words and conventional (common) wisdom that everyone can identify with, and then everyone’s going to have a story. Everyone’s going to have an experience. Everyone’s going to have a connection to it. That’s so valuable. 

Nadia Moreno: 27:57 

Well, that’s why I keep following Dan. My schedule is super busy, but I’m still on this because I really enjoy this method. 

Dan Fouts: 28:11 – Essential Question

That’s great. We love to have you as an advocate, Nadia. It’s wonderful. 

Well, we made it through the claim and we made it through the counterclaim. I think we did good service to both sides of this conversation. We also came up with a lot of different ideas on how we might spark this conversation and keep it going by defining words, not rushing through it, but developing this kind of common wisdom and understanding. I think this conversation would have legs, as the adage goes, with students. “If you wish to be out front, then act as if you were behind.”  

Maybe an essential question you could leave the students with, or build on and have them do an assignment with, if you took a leadership angle with this quote, depending on how the conversation goes, (we never know how it’s really going to go) might be, “Do humble people make good leaders?” 

Stephanie Wager:

That’s a great question. 

Dan Fouts:

Well, thank you so much, Nadia and Stephanie, for being here to share your collective wisdom with us and your stories. We really appreciate it. 

Nadia Moreno: 29:38 

Thank you so much for having us and having me.  

Steve: 29:41 

Thank you so much.

Stephanie Wager: 29:44 

Thank you. 

Postscript: 29:45 

Thanks everybody. We hope you’re walking away feeling energized by some great  ideas, and are confident that conversations like this are possible. It’s just a little bit of planning and a three-step routine. Make sure you go to our Conversation Library to try out some conversations we have all ready for you. Don’t forget to Teach Different with conversations and make a difference every day.