“When you run after a coward for too long, you meet its courage.” – Teach Different with Unknown Author

Transcript

Steve (00:00)

Welcome everybody to the Teach Different podcast. We’re on a Monday here at the end of March. And I’m here with my brother, Dan, the other founder of Teach Different. We’re almost into April. We are excited. The spring is coming. There’s a lot of things going on in the world right now. And we wanted to tackle the really big elephant in the room, which is the war that’s now going on between Iran and Israel and the United States. And this is a very, very divisive topic that a lot of people have different opinions about. There’s a lot of apprehension with it from really a lot of different sides. And it’s unfortunately dividing us even more into camps and supporters of the administration here in America and then opponents of it. And now we’re bringing in foreign countries with it. And of course, there’s a legacy and a history in the Middle East that we will not be covering tonight. I will say that, but we want to tackle this. Some of the psychological dynamics that are going on with the rhetoric that are being used, that is being used by both the different administrations of the different countries. And we’re gonna use a quote, of course, this is the Teach Different method. We’re gonna frame the discussion around a quote, and we’re gonna bring in some personal experiences in addition to covering this as a current event topic. And the hope here is to model something that you can take really home with you and I think about not shying away from those conversations that you know you should be having with people. These quotes and this Teach Different method really, really help in having civil conversations about anything. And we’re gonna try to prove that right now. So without further ado, I’m gonna read the quote a couple of times. This is from an unknown author. It’s one of these quotes that just kind of surfaces and nobody knows who to attribute it to. So this away we go and let’s come right into this. We’re going to talk about the quote first and then we’re going to bring in the Iran conflict. When you run after a coward for too long, you meet its courage. When you run after a coward for too long, you meet its courage. Let’s break this down first by trying to understand what it’s saying. We’ve got to say this in our own words. Dan, your thoughts, you kick it off.

 

Dan (03:06)

When you run after a coward for too long, you meet its courage. So when you run after somebody whom you think is weaker than you, and you persist at it, there’s a certain point where that person or country fights back and shows its courage or its willingness to survive. It’s a drive to survive, I guess.

 

Steve (03:39)

Good, and I’m gonna take run after a coward, putting pressure on them. You know, I think of something like bullying. You know, when you make someone cower for too long, you’re gonna reveal that courage. This thing is saying to me that courage lies inside of everyone. It’s just a question of how does it come out? So that’s the first thing I’m kind of noticing about the claim. This is saying that we all have something in us that can be activated if it’s pushed too far.

 

Dan (04:21)

Yeah. And the one part of it that I’m struggling with is the first part. When you run after a coward for too long, this is assuming that the person you’re putting pressure on is a coward. And I think that that is not true in many cases. In many cases, it might be perceived as a coward, but that person or that country really isn’t a coward. And so what happens is you put pressure on them and it reveals their courage. So what you thought was a coward was really a strong leader. So that’s why this claim is a difficult one to harness because of the assumption that it makes.

 

Steve (05:12)

It’s almost like if you agree with the claim, then the person wasn’t a coward in the first place. It’s like it negates itself.

 

Dan (05:20)

Well, right, right. That’s what’s confusing, but it’s good.

 

Steve (05:24)

When you run after a coward for too long, you meet its courage.

 

Dan (05:30)

In other words, you misjudge someone. It’s easy to, yeah, it’s easy to misjudge someone’s strengths and capabilities and capacities. Maybe that’s another way of saying the claim.

 

Steve (05:33)

Right. Right, when you push someone. There you go.

 

Dan (05:49)

When you run after a coward for too long, you meet its courage. You misjudged it. You weren’t working with a coward, and now you have a monster on your hand as a result.

 

Steve (06:02)

And I’m going to also pick the phrase too long. This is obviously saying that you do it relentlessly. You do it over time. You keep pressure on, you keep challenging someone. This isn’t a one-time threat. This is something that you have a concerted effort to push someone to such an extent that they break or in a way, they unveil this courage and who they are. But it takes that pressure to do that. So if you do it for too long, there’s courage in everybody.

 

Dan (06:47)

Yeah, I think of maybe a sports analogy I’m going to bring in. A coach who, let’s say, puts a lot of pressure over time on a player that hasn’t established fortitude and courage to do well in those pressured moments in a game. And there’s a lot of criticism. There’s a lot of pressure. There’s a lot of control that’s put on the… And then one day, the athlete… just shows their courage. It’s almost like they break and then they become this courageous person who’s able to perform under pressure as a result. I’m trying to relate it to something like that too.

 

Steve (07:34)

No, that’s good. I was thinking of, but there’s so much perception in this because the person that’s applying the pressure is perceiving them to be a coward. That is baked into this quote. It’s not as if the person is a coward because we learn later that they actually do have courage. You’re going to meet it. But it’s, I think this is saying a lot about when you perceive weakness in someone when you push someone to a limit and it’s almost like you’re testing them to see what kind of metal they have. I think there’s some dynamics in, know, group dynamics, maybe peer groups, where you, in order to get to know someone in a way, sometimes you have to push them to see what they’re willing to tolerate. And then the minute they snap, you know who they are. If you don’t push them, you don’t see that courage and you’re just going to keep applying pressure. It’s kind of a bullying dynamic in a way. I don’t know if I’m making sense.

 

Dan (08:48)

Yeah, but then back to what you said and I said earlier, it’s a perception. They were never a coward in the first place. They were just not pressured to reveal their courage. They weren’t a coward.

 

Steve (09:04)

which is making me think that when you relent after someone applies pressure, when you’re not fighting back at the beginning. How do you know what is self-restraint? And what is fear? I’m going to throw that in as a question to start off on. Because it can be perceived by the aggressor in different ways. An aggressor could just think the reason you’re not retaliating is because you’re afraid. You’re a coward. But you could be using self-restraint the entire time. And the bully finds that out later when you meet when he meets your courage but your courage was already there you were just restraining yourself i’m going with the

 

Dan (10:04)

Yeah, sure. I mean, that’s possible. So let’s relate this to something now that’s conceptual. How does this relate to the Iran conflict?

 

Steve (10:15)

Well, Trump is applying pressure. It started with pressure. There’s threats. There’s, if you don’t do this, you’re going to be obliterated this. There’s a lot of threats that he’s making. I’ll start there. I mean, since that’s kind of how the war started.

 

Dan (10:38)

Yeah. And the perception might be at the outset that they are, you know, that this country is, is cowardly. And so you can get away with pressuring over time to pressure a country to meet your demands. So I see that that’s what’s happening right now. And then as Iran is fighting back in the various ways they are, they’re showing some courage and resilience that some people are finding to be surprising, to be unexpected. Their courage, they’re feeling like they’re surviving. It’s an existential survival situation. And so that makes a country and a people very courageous, I would think.

 

Steve (11:35)

They’re not giving in to the pressure. I mean, again, is that a fair read on this? I think it is. There’s other ways to talk about that conflict from different perspectives. I think that you could argue that Israel has experienced a lot of pressure against them for many, many decades and, you know, attacks and bombings and threats. You know, with Hezbollah and Iran itself, which openly defies and, you know, threatens Israel. So Israel might make the argument, okay, after a while, now you’re going to meet our courage. We’re going to do what we feel that we need to do to, you know, get rid of the threat that we felt because we didn’t deserve this. And again, it’s just a perception. It’s a perspective.

 

Dan (12:47)

Yeah, It’s whenever a country is pushed to an extreme where they have to lash out out of survival instincts or revenge or whatever, the courage of its people are revealed. that’s true in most conflicts, I would think. Well, conflicts that are not resolved easily. Some conflicts are total domination and you don’t have the courage of one group of saving face. You have a surrender. But in a lot of conflicts, it doesn’t work that way. You push another country to a point and they reveal their courage and then you have a standoff.

 

Steve (13:33)

Yeah. And in a way I’m seeing that happen with this conflict as well. I thought of a counterclaim to the quote, that is another way to look at this and I’ll reread the quote, but I’m going to insert a different word. When you run after a coward for too long, you meet its capacity. And the reason I like the word capacity is that capacity exists regardless of whether or not you’re aware of it as you’re pressuring it. And courage is something that, you know, I don’t know if capacity is more of a strategy in a way. If you’re strategic and part of your strategy is to allow a bully to pressure you, knowing in the back of your mind, you’ve got some things that you can bring out that the bully has nothing, doesn’t know a thing about. It’s that’s another reason why you might think twice before you keep pressuring someone. It’s not as if they all of a sudden get this courage that was activated. They started with that, but they have some hidden things that they’re going to bring out now. And the only reason they’re bringing them out is because you’re pushing them to.

 

Dan (15:13)

That sounds like courage under a title though. That’s just a different expression of courage, I would say. But I see what you’re saying. It doesn’t come out as courage. It comes out as a different hidden strategy that was poked and now is capable, that shows their capability is what you’re saying. I was thinking of a more, simpler counterclaim, you know, when you run after a coward for too long or someone or a country whom you perceived to be a coward, you defeat it. You show its weakness and they surrender. So the pressure becomes too much and a country or a person folds their cart.

 

Steve (16:05)

And they agree to negotiate. They become transactional. They trade their survival for their dignity. And that’s what, you so far, everything that I’ve seen about Iran, they don’t seem as willing to do that as maybe some other countries, their dignity is, you know, very important. And they’re not the only nation like that. Some people do believe that there are things that are more important than life and death. And the minute you start believing that, it’s harder to pressure someone and expect them to remain a coward. Right? They’re just going to just say, I got nothing to lose. So here’s my courage.

 

Dan (16:58)

Maybe a good historical example for the counterclaim, as I described it, is Neville Chamberlain in World War II with Hitler and his demands that he was making in Czechoslovakia. And Chamberlain came to see Hitler and ended up caving into his demands under the pressure. He didn’t show the courage, he kind of bent and said, okay, you can have it. And then of course, Hitler went against his word and so on. Then quickly we had Winston Churchill rise as prime minister and then show the courage in different ways. But that’s a good historical example of the counterclaim.

 

Steve (17:37)

Yeah, when you, when of in that case, Hitler was probably a good negotiator and made it seem as if he wasn’t pressuring. He was doing something rational. Like, why wouldn’t you want peace? I don’t see that as much. Well, I guess in a way Trump does act like that sometimes when it seems like he’s conciliatory. But the struggle with him is just the consistency with his language and it’s just unpredictable.

 

Dan (18:14)

It’s a leadership style. Yeah, it’s a leadership style.

 

Steve (18:18)

Now. Yeah, that was my other counterclaim. It’s like some people will just collapse and courage doesn’t exist. All there is is cowards, a cowardly, you know, relenting to pressure. I mean, that’s all there is with some people. And I think that that’s definitely true. I’m trying to think of an example when, you know, on a geopolitical sphere, when a country kind of laid themselves out and said, okay, you got us. Like, we’re not gonna fight back. You know, that happens as well.

 

Dan (19:02)

Yeah, I’m thinking of a question here, like what is the back to the claim? What is people’s or country’s breaking point? What is their breaking point where if the claim is true, their courage is then revealed. Call it their red line. What is your red line?

 

Steve (19:25)

Right?

 

Dan (19:26)

You know, in, world war, back to world war two, cause it’s on my brain now, the invasion of Poland and then the invasion of France became the red line for England. That’s like, all right, done. We have to show our courage and we’re declaring war for the United States. It’s, you know, Pearl Harbor. So it’s interesting. This would be, yeah, now I’m seeing this in a history class. If you unpack this, I think this could work very much so.

 

Steve (19:53)

It’s very psychological. I have a quote or a question, and it kind of relates to what we’ve already touched on. Does pressure create courage or does it reveal it? That’s my question. Is courage natural in people? Or does it reveal it? And I want to just share this very quickly. It was a dream I had once of being chased by someone. And I ended up turning the corner thinking they were behind me and I ran up right in front of them. And it was like the end for me. The person set me on fire and I thought I was witnessing my own demise. And then all of sudden in the worst at the worst possible time when I was the most afraid, I accepted it. And I said, okay, well then I’m headed to another place. And the minute I accepted it, all of a sudden the fire got put out. And I remember holding my hand out and looking at my hand and then setting my own hand on fire, like with my mind. And I looked at this person that was creating all this fear and they blinked and they ran. So I, you know, I got my courage, but I was being pressured. And for some reason it got so bad that bam, that was the switch. I’ll never forget that. It’s, and I think that there is some, yeah.

 

Dan (21:34)

So was it created or revealed? Or both, or little or both? I don’t know.

 

Steve (21:40)

Yeah, I tend to think, do you have an opinion about that? I tend to think that it’s there and that nice kindness is not a weakness. And people that you bully and that you push, they do have something in the tank that will surprise anyone. And sometimes it does take pushing them to that point.

 

Dan (22:07)

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so. I think it’s revealed more. Yeah. We have it. It’s just that everybody has a different red line. And the conditions have to be right to come together to release the monster in us or in other countries. So yeah, I think it’s revealed.

 

Steve (22:11)

So you, it gets, you think? Well, we’ll see obviously what happens. I mean, we’re, we’re doing this in the middle of a conflict and you know, there’s going to be more and more talking, more and more pressure being placed. People are going to be tested and you know, everybody wants to quote unquote win whatever that means. But in reality, you know, a lot of this is psychological and how it’s perceived once things happen. You know, there’s propaganda, there’s ways to portray things, you know, which also complicates it a bit when you’re looking at it from a geopolitical perspective. What else? Anything else to add in with this?

 

Dan (23:16)

No, it’s good. I like the quote.

 

Steve (23:20)

When you run after a coward for too long, you meet its courage. I don’t know why I keep thinking of a lion. 

 

Dan (23:30)

Because of the Wizard of Oz. The lion needed courage.

 

Steve (23:33)

Wait, that’s why… that’s it! Yeah. That’s probably why. He was meek and then he got his courage. That’s beautiful. We’ll end on that. Thank you everybody. Teach Different is doing great things. Of course, we’re working with our cohorts and working with teachers and parents. And we’re trying to just get these conversations had among people that really want to make a difference, especially with young people. We need this structure. We need this framework to have these meaningful discussions and I hope you enjoyed it. Anything else? You’re good? All right, see you soon.

 

Dan (24:17)

No, all good. Thanks, everybody, and we’ll see you soon.