“Wanting to be someone else is a waste of who you are.” Kurt Cobain
Everybody has unique talents, though it’s hard to see them sometimes. We are often blinded by doubt, lack of confidence and a fear that we might embarrass ourselves. So, we turn away from ourselves, copy others, and bury our own potential. Yet, learning from others is essential for our own success and so we must embrace others’ influence in a way that doesn’t compromise our sense of self.
Join Steve and Dan Fouts – founders of Teach Different and twin brothers with over 50 years of teaching experience – along with Max Roach, Founder of JonAyves Learning Club, a forward-thinking tutoring service that teaches children through individualized instruction, to discuss the power of self-expression, enriched by the Teach Different Method.
Image source: Creative commons
Dan Fouts 00:01
Hello, Steve and Dan Fouts here. We’d like to welcome you to the Teach Different podcast, the show that teaches a powerful method for having conversations that’s grounded in research, and designed to help you navigate even the most difficult conversations with grace and ease. Whether you’re a teacher, a school leader, or just someone who wants to make a positive difference in the lives of others, this podcast gives you a tool you can take back to your community and make an immediate impact. Be sure to check out teachdifferent.com to learn more about our programs for teachers and schools. We’re so glad you’re with us changing the world, one conversation at a time.
Dan Fouts 00:44
Welcome everybody to the Teach Different podcast, we have a great show this evening with a guest from Canada who is a head of a tutoring organization. It’s nice to have guests outside of the United States. We have a quote tonight from Kurt Cobain from the legendary band Nirvana, who has some very interesting things to say about identity. For those listeners who don’t know the Teach Different method, we’re going to start with that provocative quote and get an interpretation of that quote from our guest. Then, we will slowly move to the counterclaim of the quote, a pushback against what the quote is trying to say to get those critical thinking juices flowing. As questions emerge, we like to make mental notes of them and share them during the discussion. Steve and I have found that the greatest questions kids ask are the ones that are organically generated through these conversations. Instead of begging them to be interested in something, they’re just interested naturally through the discussion. With that intro, let’s begin. I’ll say the quote twice. “Wanting to be someone else is a waste of who you are.” “Wanting to be someone else, is a waste of who you are,” by Kurt Cobain.
Dan Fouts 02:27
Max, welcome to the Teach Different podcast. Please share a little about yourself and your very interesting organization, then when you’re ready, share your first interpretation of this quote. Welcome to the show.
Max Roach 02:40 – Claim
Awesome. That’s great, Dan. Thank you so much. I definitely appreciate it. I think you know that I love the energy on this show. I’ve definitely listened to a couple of the podcasts, and it’s fantastic. It’s always great to see the direction as to which individuals will interpret information and the fact that you take different quotes, and different words of wisdom, if you will, from different areas and just say, well, what do we actually think about this? I think that’s very reasonable. There are always counterclaims to claims that are put out, so why not discuss all of it. Interestingly enough, I come from music as well. I performed as a drummer for years, and studied drums in university. I was able to tour the world warming for many different artists, including Beyonce. I’ve been able to be on the road opening for her and members of the Rolling Stones. I’ve also performed with the late great Charley Watson playing my drum set. I’ve definitely been on quite a few adventures. These types of quotes are definitely in my wheelhouse. I think where it has sort of led me and why this quote, in particular, is so important is because I’ve realized that music is such an important part of my life. But, at the end of the day, who am I really. Who is Max Roach the individual, not as a career, not even as a father, not necessarily as anyone who is supposed to be someone else, right? At the end of the day, people are always looking for you to do jobs that are for them. This quote is actually very fitting for me going through life, and this whirlwind of a journey that I see as so positively personal. Some others may not think so. They may think that I’m a little loopy for the things that I’ve done, but being able to come out the other end and say, well, now there’s a tutoring personalized learning organization that effectively serves a global audience. What does that have to do with music? Who am I really? I think that’s a bit of a journey that I’m still on. It’s a quest that as a musician, I know specifically, we’re always on a quest to figure out what’s next, what’s greater, what’s bigger, how do we continue to sort of dig into our own sound as a musician. So, all of that to say that wanting to be someone else is a waste. I mean, there’s no other you, so why not just be you. The funny thing is that even though it takes such a long time to get there, at least for myself it’s taken a long time, it’s the easiest thing to do, to actually be yourself.
Steve Fouts 05:16
It should be. That’s right.
Max Roach 05:18
It should be easy to do. Right? But, I think again, that there’s a lot of learning that needs to happen. I’ll take music as an example. I like to compare music and sales. I like to say that I have a degree in an industry that actually touches people’s souls. That’s what my degree is in. It might say that it’s a music degree, but it’s actually a degree in touching people’s souls. Imagine two singers singing the same song. They’re going to sound completely different. If you have Kurt Cobain singing something, and then you have somebody like Frank Sinatra or Beyonce singing it, they’re all going to be completely different. They’re going to touch people differently. I studied this for years, professionally. So I think that there’s a lot of value to this, and being able to take this information and bring it into the teaching world, which has just been wow, I never thought that this sort of blend would ever happen for myself. But I’ve realized that, at least right now, even though I’ve been through going through music, going from music into the food industry, going from the food industry, into the tech industry, going into the tech industry into this childcare industry, and then making it into the education industry. I mean, right now it feels like home. Right? But here’s the thing, maybe there’s still another thing, maybe there’s still five other things, but what I do know is that my story is me. Right? And you know what, that’s honestly what’s all that’s important, at least to myself, That’s how I’ve been able to see success. And I definitely encourage, you know, all the listeners as well to just search for what it is that is authentically you. Right? Whether it’s through your hobbies, your career, or not having your career, whatever it is, search for it. So, I think that anything else, like this quote says, is absolutely a waste of time.
Steve Fouts 07:04
It’s okay, if you are always evolving. It’s a fleeting thing. It’s a constant discovery, and that’s okay. I think that’s another thing that gets people anxious and nervous when they’re not quite sure who they are. It’s easier to go and find somebody else, and copy them, because they’re not sure of themselves. But again, take a weakness, turn it into a strength, keep evolving, because discovering who you are is a process. You’re going to end up doing different types of things. And that’s okay. I’m kind of giving my read on it based on what you said, Max. What would you say, Dan? What are you thinking?
Dan Fouts 07:52
I’m thinking of the age. I teach high schoolers, Max, so 15 to 17 year olds, and many of them, you can just see it in their eyes, they don’t really know exactly who they are, and they may not get it validated at home. So, they do spend a lot of time emulating other people on social media or whatever. They’re searching. It’s interesting that they want things so badly, kind of like what you said at the beginning, that many of them aren’t mature enough to realize that it’s right in front of them. They just have not acknowledged their own talents and gifts. You said that with music, you’re speaking to the soul, right? I can’t remember your exact terminology, but great teaching, I think, is when you’re able to reveal to students who they are in the right way in a safe environment. Those are the things I was thinking of as well.
Max Roach 08:54
Yeah, for sure. There’s so much in there. There’s the high schoolers that you teach and knowing that you’re responsible for their next steps in the future, is the beauty. For all teachers out there, it’s the same thing. I think there is a portion where there’s revealing who that person is. That’s what a great teacher, coach or mentor is, right? I don’t think that this is age specific, just as a thought process as well. Maybe it’s different between each age group, but at the end of the day, even adults need mentors, and if they are athletes, they need coaches or fitness trainers if you’re looking to be a bodybuilder. You need your music teachers, if you’re going to be a teacher. You need your VP of sales to show you, hey, here are the methods in order to be able to close your clients. I think it actually never ends. Like you were saying, Steve, it’s actually optimal to be ever evolving. That’s the thing that we almost don’t realize. Coming from music, we’re always looking to improve on our skill set and it’s not even necessarily “a getting better” situation. It’s just an ever moving, flowing situation where, okay, now I’m here in this zone, I’m going to acquire more information. I’m going to come over here, and I’m going to learn this, and this. Like you were saying, Dan, listen, there’s a lot, especially in the music industry, when it comes to imitation, and how to actually learn if I need to learn how to play in a certain style of music. I mean, the reality is, I’ll have to listen to the music. I’ll have to listen to those who have come before me who have been great at it, or even those who come after me that are incredible at it. I think this is all part of the journey of life. The hope is that, as teachers, parents, coaches, and mentors, we are here, almost like the giants that those can stand on, as an example. I say that because I’m teaching seven year olds, and I’m taller than him. This whole giant mentality, it’s just that I’m taller. I can see what’s ahead. I can see over the hill, so come on my shoulder, so you can see it, too. Here’s the thing, when you’re on my shoulders, you can see further than I can. There’s something beautiful about that, because then we can learn from those who are mentoring and teaching and keep evolving. We’re seeing it every day on social media. I have to ask those who are younger than me, what I’m supposed to be doing next, because they’re the ones with all of the information. I think it’s all beautiful. I think this is great, because being able to understand that as teachers, we have more of a role than just effectively showing the mathematics or showing the chemistry or whatever it is.
Dan Fouts 11:34
Yeah, that’s great Max. A theme is already emerging in this episode that you’ve revealed, I think, really well. It’s very hard for us to do this alone, to become who we are alone. We need other people to help our own self discovery, and that’s really, really important, because I think a lot of people think that this is a singular journey. They don’t trust people enough to help them get to where they need to be, but it’s so important. It’s a collective journey.
Max Roach 12:09
Steve Fouts 12:10
Two thoughts from my side. One, when I picked up an instrument just for a brief period, Max, because it was required by my parents. Mine was guitar. I didn’t last long in it. Sports, beat it out as far as time and what I was really motivated to do. But, I’m thinking of it now, because of your music analogy that you’re kind of carrying into this quote. I remember the guitar teacher, the first thing she said was, what’s your favorite song on the radio? It was radio back then. What’s your favorite song? We’re going to learn how to play it. Did I really want to be that artist when I was learning to play? I think it was Queen, “Another One Bites the Dust.” I think it was that. I’m just saying that because, one it’s a memory, and two, it motivated me to try to learn something about myself and what I could do as a guitarist. I was copying somebody through imitation. You had to start through imitation. That memory just popped in. I feel like that’s going to be a recurring theme here. The other word I like in this quote is waste. I feel that the word waste is a negative word, but the way it’s written in this quote, “wanting to be someone else is a waste of who you are,” is inspiring. It’s almost saying that there’s magic, that there’s this beautiful thing that we all are. That’s implied in the quote. That gets taken from you when you get thrown off, and you’re trying to copy someone else too much. So anyway, I wanted to just point that out. I think that word is powerful in this quote.
Max Roach 14:19
Absolutely. I had a thought as well, when you were speaking because I feel like this is one of the reasons why our organization has been quite successful at this point. I call it the three L’s. We see it in the schools. We see it everywhere. Everyone’s being diagnosed with something. It’s just kind of what it is. I understand that there’s a legitimate side of it, but then there are some I feel like that’s up for discussion. Whether that’s for better or for worse, whatever that might be. Here’s the thing. Steve, you mentioned that your music teacher, which I really applaud, asked what song you like, because we need to apply whatever we’re learning to you. You’re not going to learn a song that you don’t even know. I don’t think this is reasonable when you’re just picking something up. This is something that I apply, and we call it the three L’s. We say, you need to love it, so that you can learn it, and then you can live it. This is very important, because if you don’t love something, it’s grueling. Have you ever tried learning something that you don’t like? There’s no way that you can be consistent with it. It’s not possible. You have to love it. When I’m teaching students math, they’re coming in saying I don’t like math, or they say I’m bad at math, or I can’t do math. Firstly, you can do math. Do you know, one plus one? Yes, then you can do, Matt. So, let’s scrap the idea that you can’t do it, because already you’re going down the wrong road. Let’s not even start there. Everything is based off of, what I like to say is the molecular level. If I need to learn how to play drums a certain way, you can start with the very basics. I can teach everyone to play drums because it’s just what it is. When I teach children, what I like to do is apply it to their lives. I have a grade six student who loves dirt biking that I do some instruction with. I was like, wow, that’s amazing. One of the things that her mother wanted me to work with her on was writing and storytelling. I do this with different students. There are workbooks that we use, and I change the actual subject into their interest, like dirt biking. Now, it’s applicable to the students. That technique is actually so important to making sure that students learn effectively, in my opinion, anyway.
Steve Fouts 16:59
Absolutely. You have to love it. Let me see if I can remember, you have to love it, so you can learn it, and then you can live it.
Max Roach 17:05
Steve Fouts 17:06
I’m taking it.
Max Roach 17:07
You got it.
Dan Fouts 17:12
I’m going to apply that to philosophy. Steve and I both have philosophy backgrounds. It’s natural. This method that we’re working with is very philosophical. Those three L’s are perfect. The end is living it, you have to do it. It’s the practical application of something that has become a part of you that makes it most meaningful. That’s what we’re doing now. We’re applying this to a conversation method and philosophy. It’s great. Love it.
Max Roach 17:41
Oh, of course. It’s amazing.
Steve Fouts 17:43 – Counterclaim
Let’s pivot to the counterclaim.
Dan Fouts 17:45
Here we go. Critical thinking time. I’m ready.
Steve Fouts 17:49
Drop the ball. Devil’s advocate. Does anybody want to flip this around and come with a different perspective on wanting to be someone else is a waste of who you are?
Max Roach 18:06
Yeah, I can start no problem. It depends on who’s reading this. I’m reading it with a certain lens. I’m reading it saying that I don’t believe that being anything else besides yourself is valuable. Now, we’ve already been poking at counterclaims as we’ve been having the discussion. At the end of the day is anything actually a waste of time? Let’s be realistic. We can probably all agree that those who have regrets, maybe don’t regret it so much, because at the end of the day, that’s just going to hold you back. Take your experiences and make it into something positive. Otherwise, I would say it’s a big waste of time. If you’re looking to imitate someone, or understand how someone learns, you have to know what they’re doing. You have to know how they do it. You have to study them, copy them, imitate them, and be them. I think that’s okay, as long as your mindset is in the right place. To be honest, as a musician, sometimes your mindset isn’t in the right place. You actually just want to be that person. That’s how you learn the best, by getting yourself in character. If you’re an actor, you get into character and live as that person. Jim Carrey will be his character through and through for weeks on end, not breaking character, because he has to be that person. Was that a waste of time? According to this quote, it would be, depending on how you’re reading it. But, that’s actually how you really do learn how to be in that state. I guess that’s one way to throw it out there to you guys. If you want to comment.
Dan Fouts 19:40
I love it. You’re speaking my mind. I mean, that’s exactly what I was thinking. Some people have to settle in to imitate someone else for longer periods before they gain the confidence to do it themselves. That’s not a waste of time. That’s a good use of time. When you deliver an assignment with directions, you will have a group of students whose first impulse is to say, can you please show me a finished product? They don’t want any creativity. They want to see a completed product, and then they want to mimic every step to achieve that. Showing those things at the beginning of a project isn’t necessarily the worst thing, if they’re trying to imitate at the beginning, but of course, you always want them to make it their own. That’s how I’ve been looking at this.
Steve Fouts 20:47
Yeah, I’m going to go spiritual. Could you imagine the reaction you would get walking into a church, where you have people saying and believing in every situation, and asking themselves, what would Jesus do? That is an important consideration to their own spiritual journey, to being a good person. I would say a counterclaim depends on who you want to be. That can play into whether it’s going to be a waste for you. Max, I do agree with you. Is something truly a waste? Even if you’re a little lost and misguided, getting out of the wilderness becomes part of your journey. So nothing is wasted. Maybe we could say that it really depends on who it is that you hold up there on a pedestal or a role model, that’s going to really decide whether or not this is going to be good or bad for you. Honestly, if you’re a little lost, and you need something more in your life, and you don’t have the strength at that time to know what it is, then wanting to be someone greater than you, then emulating that person might be a wonderful thing to do. It might be a great opportunity to develop your own riff on it.
Dan Fouts 22:37
I would say parents, too, depending on the situation. Emulating your parents isn’t a waste of time. Imitating what your mom or dad does isn’t a waste of time. It’s part of natural development. It gives you the fortitude to be someone who’s independent. Wanting to be like someone ends up being the fuel for your own self realization.
Steve Fouts 23:08
Yeah, I agree with all of that as well. I don’t have the philosophy background as such. I come from a bit of a different background. Both of my parents were actually licensed ministers. I come from a pretty heavy church background for better or for worse, however anyone wants to interpret it doesn’t really matter. To me, it’s what it is. How do we go through life as individuals, as humans, not having all of the answers. Maybe I’m getting a little wide. but we need to trust and rely on something that is bigger than us. When you’re a child, it’s your parents. That’s just what it is. They know everything. My son comes to me. He tells my mom that his dad knows everything. If you only knew, son. LOL!
Max Roach 24:13
To my son, I’m everything. My wife is everything to our children. As adults, to look at something that’s greater is very important. Recently, I’ve been thinking about when we look up into space, what are we looking at? We can only see so much with the most powerful telescopes. There’s this concept called the observable universe. It’s gigantic, and then we don’t know what else there is. So we have to trust in something, regardless of what it is. It’s going to be larger. Why not make it positive? It should be positive. It’s okay to imitate that, like you said, in order to like this. Listen to the things that have actually caused healing within certain practices. Believing that you are healed is an example, or believing that certain thoughts will actually heal you of certain diseases. These things have happened. Being able to imitate that thought process, belief, or higher power, is an interesting thought. I did not even think about that going into this quote. It’s nice to kind of explore that a little bit.
Steve Fouts 25:28
That’s really interesting. Let me riff off that, Max, because now you have me focused on the word wanting. There’s another loaded word that could really affect whether or not it’s good or bad, that you want to be someone else. I mean, what’s your motivation? Are you trying to be a better person? If that’s your motivation, then wanting to be someone else might be a really good thing for you at certain points, and not at all a waste of who you are. But if you’re wanting to be like someone else, because you want their money, fame, or what you think they have, then that might be an issue. I’m just looking at that word now. That’s going to decide me on whether or not I would take this as advice.
Dan Fouts 26:35
Yeah, the motivation for why you want to imitate somebody else. If it does spring from a sort of hatred of yourself, then you’re in trouble. I guess the motivation would matter there.
Max Roach 26:56
Well, that’s interesting, because the hatred of self can drive you into something positive. Even the framing is very interesting. I feel like what’s coming out of this, at least for myself, when I’m thinking about it, is that no matter what your choice is, your goal should be positivity. It doesn’t even have to be linked to anything specific. If it is going to better yourself, then be selfish about it. That’s fine. Is it going to better yourself in a holistic way? Will stealing something from the candy store make you better? Firstly, you’re stealing candy. Let’s start there. Don’t eat candy all the time. Secondly, how is this benefiting you in terms of becoming a stronger person, a better business person, or creating better relationships? Looking down the road? Isn’t negotiation where you’re going when you take things from the candy store? If you want something cheaper, go negotiate for it, because that’s going to give you more skills. I think it’s beyond motivation. I love to look at outcomes. I’m very results driven. Maybe it’s partly the computer science side of me. I went into computer science right out of high school. Then, I said, I’m not doing this, get me out of here. I’m not looking at a black screen all day. Yet, here we are on digital devices all the time. Looking at it from an analytical perspective, what is the outcome? Is the outcome positive, or is it a net good? If it’s that good, perfect, then push for it. If it’s not, then maybe you should reevaluate following that person or that entity. It’s not necessarily a person. It could be a thought process, a way of life, or an institution. It starts to get kind of interesting when you think about institutions and institutional beliefs that you may want to follow. Well, what’s the outcome here? What’s the positive outcome? The thought processes may push people into a negative sort of light and it doesn’t help anyone. Another thing to riff off. I think this is really interesting.
Steve Fouts 28:31
Good stuff. You made me just think of something so light and funny, like shoplifting. Imagine trying to reform shoplifters by saying you know what, next time you go in there, go negotiate. Try a different angle on this. LOL!
Max Roach 29:45
Highbrow criminal activity is what we call it. Who would have thought we’d be here? I think framing is a big piece of this where you can get whatever you want. It’s just that some people, they get it the cheap way. And here’s the thing, when you buy something cheap, you always get what you pay for. That’s the reality of the situation. So I mean, why not? Listen, this is what business is, when you actually think about it. You’re negotiating at all times for the best possible deal. If you steal from someone, well guess what? All the reviews on Google, TripAdvisor and Reddit, are all going to come back to get you. That’s like shoplifting. Don’t do things like this, because they’re just going to come back for you. You may as well negotiate amicably so that you could move forward and learn something. You create relationships and remove barriers. That’s the beauty of life, we’re all in this together, so why not just riff off of it. I love that idea of riffing, right? Because, again, I’m in music. I’ve definitely never used that metaphor before. This is the first time. You heard it here first, negotiate for what you want. That’s definitely a logical case.
Steve Fouts 31:01
I like it and the positive spin that you can have. Really good.
Dan Fouts 31:08 – Essential Question
I think we have good claims and good counterclaims on this. Did a question percolate up for you, Max? Are you left with a question? I’m left with some.
Max Roach 31:18
Yeah, I’d love to hear the
Steve Fouts 31:19
Yeah, throw your question out.
Dan Fouts 31:22
I don’t have it articulated yet.
Max Roach 31:25
Bringing it back to the school model, I feel as though it’s saying, wanting to be someone else is a waste of time. Looking at it from a positive standpoint, yes, you want to be yourself. Generally, what I found, especially those who are very high achieving are usually those who are themselves kind of undeniably get into the zone, and they just go for it. That’s what it is. What I’m finding myself is that I love speaking to people. I love having conversations, and I love innovation. I think it’s the best thing ever. I feel as though the harder it is to achieve, the more interested I am in it. Not everyone’s like this. Some people are like this. Apparently, there’s a lot of money in that as well, when you innovate and you succeed. One of the things that I’m interested in is school districts, and trying to understand how schools work and why students aren’t doing well in schools. What’s the reason for this? I’ve got many thoughts on why, but one of the main things that I’m finding is class sizes. They hit differently now than they used to. Now classes haven’t been much larger than they are now. When I was growing up, I still had roughly about 20-25 kids in the classroom. Fortunately, when I was younger, I was able to accept the information positively. Now, I wouldn’t say that even half the class was able to really accept this information. Listen, a lot of students have always been struggling, except now we’re labeling it with different labels. And sometimes we’re medicating it. In some cases, it’s legitimate, but in other cases, it’s not. I mean, let’s be realistic. No one is 100%. That’s why I’m saying this with authority. When I’m looking at the classroom, I’m thinking, is that what’s happening here? Why is it that there are certain people who are struggling? Why is it that only 30% of children are succeeding throughout their grade levels? I’m speaking to teachers about this, and they’re saying, Oh, I have a large contingent of students who are struggling, however they define struggle. I’m leaving that open. I think we were speaking about this earlier. I think one-on-one interactions are the best. I think it’s the most important and everyone needs it from age zero to 100. One on one interaction. I’m sure you can probably speak to this Dan. I’d love to hear your perspective, both of your perspectives, because you were speaking about high school. If you have one teacher who’s trying to give information on a topic, but there are 15-25 individuals in the classroom, with different needs, who learn at different speeds, have different learning styles, and are interested in different topics, how can you be effective? There’s a contingent who aren’t interested in the topic. How do you effectively help these children learn in a way that works for them? You have to address it one-on-one. I think that’s what I’m looking to push, especially to school boards. I strongly believe, because I do it currently, that I can teach any topic, within a 15 to 20 minute span. Once I understand the child or the person, I teach towards what they’re interested in, and they will learn it just like that. I just did it today with a student. It blew his mind. He couldn’t believe what I was teaching him. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this, because it’s very difficult to scale. Any thoughts on what one-on-one looks like and what you’ve seen?
Dan Fouts 35:14
Yeah, that method is really being pushed where I teach. We call it differentiated instruction. There’s a lot of different buzzwords for it. The challenge, of course, is how much money is available to pay teachers to make sure that a student body is covered in classrooms. A lot of times it lands at 20 to 30 students in each class. But, I agree with you that if you can structure the class to give one-on-one attention to kids at certain key moments, it can have a transformative effect on things. But, I would also say this, Max, I think some of the best teaching and learning occurs as a community in a classroom. This conversation method is a good example of this. When you have a group of human beings who are all thinking about the same thing, like we are tonight, yet, we’re giving our different perspectives on the very same thing, that is a powerful method of education, that I think will always be powerful. Alongside the one-on-one. It’s always the combination of the two that is most beautiful.
Max Roach 36:32
Steve Fouts 36:33
I’m taking this personalization idea, and I’m coming back to the quote, “Wanting to be someone else is a waste of your time.” There are two people in this quote, you and someone else. This quote is really talking about, there being only one you. Affirm that, and really get to know who you are. Max, when you talk about personalized instruction, and just teaching in general, what are teachers, but people who are helping individuals bring out their own you. Students aren’t trying to be a teacher, per se, teachers, and really, really good mentors have strategies to help people look in the mirror and see themselves in another way. You’re not trying to emulate the teacher. They’re a role model, but they’re more of an inspiration. I’m circling back to this essential question, and I’m thinking of the word inspiration. I’m going to try something here, but I need like five seconds of silence. I have to think about this word inspiration, and I’m not quite there yet. If someone wants to hop in with your own, or go off what I just said, feel free. I’m trying to get at something here.
Dan Fouts 38:22
I did have a question surface. Let me give you mine. I don’t know if this will help you with yours, Steve. How much should we rely on others to become who we are?
Max Roach 38:35
Okay. How much should we rely on others to become who we are? I’m going to throw this out there, and say 100%.
Dan Fouts 38:45
I’m with you. Thank you.
Max Roach 38:50
Just to open it up even more, in case it wasn’t already wide enough. Let’s just keep squeezing the juice out. I’m going to say 100%, because we are no one without anyone.
Dan Fouts 39:04
Without trusting others, we aren’t anyone. Yeah, I’m with you.
Steve Fouts 39:08
No man is an island.
Max Roach 39:10
Think about running a business. It’s impossible to run a business without a team. Yes, you can say that you’re doing it yourself, but the reality is that you’re probably hiring somebody to do something. You’re going on one of these gig economy websites and hiring somebody to do your logo, or hiring a virtual assistant, or individuals who come on to a podcast and start speaking about everything under the sun, which is incredible, because everything’s linked, and it’s all towards teaching. That is exactly what we’re doing right now. Without each other, we can’t have innovation, we can’t grow, we can’t move forward. So, it is absolutely 100%. Now, that being said, there are going to be portions where you need to sit and be by yourself. Even then you’re still relying on research. Even if you’re thinking about meditation, people have been meditating for centuries. You’re still relying on the information that someone else has laid out. This isn’t magic that just automatically comes to. It’s a combination of information from people whom you’ve met. Take meditation as an example. Now, I don’t meditate. I’m in that stage of getting into the zone of doing my homework, understanding how it works, why it works, when it works, all these things. Without having other people, not necessarily even in my life…. YouTube is amazing. Could you imagine living without YouTube? Impossible. So already, it’s this 100% rule, because I’m going online, and I’m seeing other people who are adding to my life. It’s never been easier. I guess that’s part of the reason why I think that would be my answer, my final answer, as we would say.
Steve Fouts 41:01
Good stuff. I never got my inspiration question up, but I’m going to go with that rely word. This may sound a lot like yours, Dan, but my essential question might be something like, how do you know when to rely on yourself or rely on someone else, and know that it will be good for your own development?
Max Roach 41:25
That’s interesting, because then you’re making a decision, a choice. Life is full of choices. At some point, you have to go in this direction, or you have to go in the other direction, you can’t fork yourself.
Dan Fouts 41:39
That takes self-knowledge. It is really important to know you can rely on yourself or when to rely on others. How do you make that discernment, that judgment? Yeah, I like that. That’s better than mine.
Max Roach 41:52
When to rely. Very interesting. I know, for myself personally, that I’ve had to make those decisions, and I think it’s very important to know when. Discernment is a very important word in this as well. I speak with my parents, and I talk about that word all the time.
Steve Fouts 42:07
You know why, Max? That’s a spiritual word.
Max Roach 42:10
Steve Fouts 42:11
You got it from the parents.
Max Roach 42:13
It’s exactly where it is. I think it’s very important to have that discernment to understand this is what’s next. Listen, there are always options, but which option are you going to choose? At the end of the day, results are still with me, I care about the outcome. How do you get to the right outcome?
Dan Fouts 42:33
Steve Fouts 42:33
Dan Fouts 42:34
Well Max, this has been a really energizing discussion. We covered a lot of terrain on this one. I can speak for us using Kurt Cobain’s words here, wanting to be someone else is a waste of who you are, is a lot deeper than it was an hour ago. Hopefully, our listeners will have the same kind of experience. We love these quotes. They don’t have to come from philosophers. They can come from musicians, they can come from athletes. Everybody has interesting wisdom to share. That’s what we try to do here on the podcast. It’s been great to have you as a guest, Max. You can stay after we cut the recording, and we’ll say our goodbyes, but we really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much.
Max Roach 43:25
Thanks a lot, guys. This has been great. I’m sure we’ll have many other discussions, because this was the tip of the iceberg.
Steve Fouts 43:30
Thank you, Max. Absolutely.
Steve Fouts 43:35
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